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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Refusal to discuss formula feeding at parentcraft class

623 replies

obeliaboo · 12/03/2015 18:11

AIBU? Ready for the fire!
I've been told that in order for me to have a tour of my chosen hospital's delivery suite, that i need to attend 'parentcraft' classes.
Yesterday was exclusively about breastfeeding, fair enough, didnt know that of course until we got there.
So, as the midwife goes on about breastfeeding and support, I enquire what is the support for those who fall into small percentage of mums who cannot breastfeed. Simple question.
"What do you mean?".
I had to ask again, and put it across that i intend to breastfeed, but what if i cant, what if my milk doesn't come in. It happens, it happened to my eldest sister, its nothing to be ashamed of so whats the harm in asking and what is the support in that situation.
"We don't discuss artificial feeding".
Seriously?? I understand the necessity to promote breastfeeding is a priority for the NHS, because it seriously needs normalising, but to just object to even touching on the subject of formula feeding really riled me. I felt like i was at a propaganda session! She instead continued to address breastfeeding and a specific brand of electric breast bump at a specifc well known retailer.
Is this what the NHS supports? Big business's and there overpriced products (the specific one mentioned was over £100, I am not in a position to be able to afford something like that for a start), under the guise that 'breast is best', its the best start for baby - and insinuating that formula is the devil when for some poor souls, it is the only option?
AIBU for finding this absolutely snotty and condescending? There are mums out there who are underconfident, or genuinely don't lactate, mums who have gone through breastcancer and mastectomies etc, so why are these midwives refusing to even consider discussing both options.
Why make it militant and harder for those who simply can't, to speak up without feeling ashamed?
FYI this is the 3rd midwife i've had ranting at me over this.

OP posts:
Altinkum · 15/03/2015 10:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsRabbitsTwin · 15/03/2015 10:28

When I had my DS I was really keen to breastfeed.

After having a long failed induction and a CS, I then got told he needed to take formula, for reasons that were never fully explained but I think were something to do with blood sugar levels. I did ask the nurse to explain but she wouldn't.

I was really upset about having to give him formula after months of getting told that it wasn't as good as breastfeeding. The nurse also had a go at me because he wouldn't take enough of the milk and she just wouldn't back off or demonstrate how to bottle feed even after I burst into tears (which I'm not given to doing but I had just given birth).

We did get back onto breastfeeding. But I genuinely had no idea that I might HAVE to formula feed, and there was no support, information or reassurance.

Mrsjayy · 15/03/2015 10:43

Exactly it isn't about how to make a bottle it's about reassure and plain information about formula feeding

SadieSimmons · 15/03/2015 11:18

Obeliaboo -I'm starting to hope the posts on thr thread are beginning to show the problem HCPs and the NHS have over the issue of feeding a baby. There are too many variables.

I would like to suggest a few points to ponder.

Breastfeeding is the biological norm. No formula will ever be the same composition. Even these two statements have the potential to cause upset.

We do not live in a breastfeeding culture.

Breastfeeding has a number of advantages that require consideration. If you decide to formula feed from birth and then change your mind it can be difficult - but not impossible as this thread has shown - to switch. Even one breastfeed from birth should be considered beneficial. Again this statement has the potential to cause upset.

Op - how about if the HCP had discussed formula feeding with the group and then a complaint was received that FF was promoted. This has happened.

How do people manage the fusion of modern world with a very basic human/life quality of reproducing? Women's bodies just do what they do and this sometimes means they don't follow the plan.

The TOTAL responsibility a parent has for raising a child and the fact that that can be/is TERRIFING. This thread screams that. Everyone here is trying to be the best mother/parent they can be. Everyone has opinions on what that definition is. How do you convince mums to be without raising blood pressure/ anxiety levels that they need to accept that responsibility sooner rather than later? That there is a wealth of information out there but that it is IMPOSSIBLE to cover everything. Those mums that can just go with the flow do seem to adjust better but that's not a quality that most of us have.

Everyone is heavily invested in their choices. Everyone is fearful of making mistakes forgetting that when you make decisions in the 'Now' you don't intend to get it wrong if and when you do. Do not feel guilty if you do. Guilt should only be felt when you actually set out to cause harm - no one on this thread will be in this category.

I've been with groups of mothers who all have fed their babies differently. The support for each other when they've discussed feeding has been brilliant to watch but it still has the potential to cause feelings of anger, guilt and sadness. It's a fine line to unpick those issues without causing further distress.

How can a mum be made to feel great about a successful outcome of breastfeeding when they've persevered through cluster feeding, cracked nipples and not given up even though they may have contemplated it many times when they are sat next to a mum who is extremely upset about switching because her baby was unable to latch properly no matter how many people she went to for help, how many websites she browsed, how many support threads she read. How can a mum be made to feel great about
a successful return to work due to bottle feeding when she's sat next to a tearful mum who is struggling to get her baby to take a bottle when her return to work is imminent?

It still amazes me that feeding babies is not dealt with properly as part of biology taught in schools. No doubt some of you might consider that as propaganda if breastfeeding is talked about as the biological norm. Others amongst you might consider advertising of any type of baby milk is propaganda.

Finally I do think postnatal support is pants in the UK. And I don't think the issues highlighted on this thread are going to go away any time soon.

birobenny · 15/03/2015 12:51

Not sure how being told that bf is the 'biological norm' will help anyone.I suspect that it comes from the same lactivust lexicon as 'artifical feeding' (big wide eyes 'no it's not judgement it's just the truth')
Dieing at 45 is the biological norm, being constantly either nursing it pregnant from age 13 is the 'biological norm', walking around barefoot is the 'biological norm' Ffs. Natural is not of necessity better.

rainyandwindy · 15/03/2015 12:57

I agree birobenny.

I'm sure a huge part of the problem in breastfeeding numbers is lack of postnatal support. This ideally needs to be at the level of HVs/midwives in hospitals and in the very early days at home to be most effective.

However, there will remain those of us for whom even this does not help. I spent 12 weeks trawling around different bf support groups, and must have had contact with about 8 different midwives who tried to help in hospital and during the first week at home. I saw a lactation consultant about 8 times and had my DS's tongue tie cut twice, the second time by a dentist in London who is one of only 2 people in the UK who cuts using laser (the most effective way to revise a tongue tie). I had advice on maintaining milk supply and hired a hospital grade pump.

I would say that I had lots and lots of help, I couldn't have had much more. I still wasn't able to bf. There are others like me, for whom there is no "fix".

RedToothBrush · 15/03/2015 13:00

I'm starting to hope the posts on thr thread are beginning to show the problem HCPs and the NHS have over the issue of feeding a baby. There are too many variables.

You see I disagree on that point. Much of the rest of what you say has elements of the truth and a good deal of merit but that's the one I ironically disagree on.

I think its a cop out to say there are too many variables when the truth is that problems that women have tend to be fairly common ones rather than unusual ones and the really key message isn't being prompted. It should be that "health and welfare of both mother and child both physical and mental is best" rather than the kindergarten "breast is best".

HCPs have a duty to 'do no harm' and to put the interests of each individual patient first. I do think an over zealous and simplistic approach to feeding IS doing harm. Especially if you consider the what the implication are if poster who put the following is correct.

Interestingly in the recent issue of our local NCT newletter, postnatal depression and bf was mentioned, but the title was about how bf reduces PND. Only at the bottom of the article did they mention in passing that it had been found that not being able to bf was linked with PND.

We live in a society where we do have complex health issues. We need to get to grips with dealing with them as being complex rather than trying to reduce them to black and white. Life isn't like that, and we do all know that.

Ultimately if you promote a more complex message that "health and welfare of both mother and child both physical and mental is best" then the women sat next to each other with different problems are more inclined to see healthcare as a series of more complex compromises and individual care plans rather than being quite so black and white. Its a message that although not quite as catchy and a bit more complex isn't really hard either.

I think that actually the biggest problem women have is this thing where they are constantly compared and taught to fit into little boxes throughout their lives, not just in health and wellbeing in a way that men aren't. We look to see how we fit in with others rather than accepting and acknowledging our differences. Its about seeing women as simpletons.

I don't think the most basic of practical principles of breast feeding (or indeed formula feeding) are terribly hard. However I do not think that teaching 'baby to boob and if it hurts you are doing it wrong' is a correct principle because its too simplistic. We don't get taught about the most common problems and how to deal with them until after we give birth (and the health service does not support the most common problems such as tongue tie adequately). Only providing education after the fact often means the ship has sailed before you can get the information you need. Women are able to and would rather manage to make decisions about family planning and the sometimes complex pros and cons about each method than dealing with an unplanned pregnancy. How does this differ exactly?

We hear a lot about the emotional bond between a mother and baby when breastfeeding goes right, but we don't get taught a great deal about how to cope if its not going right. We don't get taught that you are likely to behave in a way you might not normally do after giving birth (which applies to a number of issues - which include things like signing your life away to the likes of Bounty...).

Under all this, is the fact that postnatal care is crap. But that is not under pinned by lack of funding but by lack of political will power. Its poor planning and allocation of resources rather than lack of them that are the issue. PND is linked to feeding outcomes, so is costing the NHS and other parts of society more than it would to properly address the source of the problem rather than only addressing the symptoms.

The bottom line is not that women are stupid, but that women are being treated as if they are.

Again another basic principle of good healthcare.

HazleNutt · 15/03/2015 13:06

some comments here are astonishing. You don't need FF support because if you can't read instructions and google, you're stupid? And? Last time I checked, there was no IQ test required before you can have a baby, so some women might as well be stupid - aren't they the ones who need most help then?

PurdeyBirdie · 15/03/2015 13:30

It tends to be largely middle-class mummies who make themselves I'll with the 'devastation' of not being able to bf. Their class consciousness won't allow them to be seen at their NCT group with a common-as-muck bottle. What would their Boden-clad peers say? Shock

PurdeyBirdie · 15/03/2015 13:31

*ill

sparkysparkysparky · 15/03/2015 13:34

Your comments are crass beyond belief, purdie, but I suppose that is what you are aiming for.

RedToothBrush · 15/03/2015 13:39

I'd say that women going to an NCT class are more likely to be looking for support than anything. The act of going to a class is a sign that you don't feel confident in the support network you have just as much as seeking practical advice...

Which makes them vulnerable in their own right.

HTH

livingzuid · 15/03/2015 13:40

You can have my first ever mn Biscuit purdey. Because of course women from poorer socioeconomic background don't at all give a shit about how they bond with their babies and show no interest in bf. What a rude and insensitive post.

SadieSimmons · 15/03/2015 13:44

Red - I just don't see how HCPs can put the interests of individuals first in a group setting.

The problem with parent craft classes of any type is that everyone there is dealing with lots of what ifs? Everyone will have their own variation on this hence the variables mentioned - it would be impossible to answer directly What if I am unable to breastfeed? It is impossible to answer because it's not even happened yet. No one can prepare for every eventuality even though it would be wonderful if we could.

I've been fortunate to have been in a position where women postnatally have confessed to being in a blinkered mindset during pregnancy, discounting lots of advice and only going with what they want to believe. Postnatally women also tend to discount advice and find info that fits their opinion or validates their choice.

The Op has suggested that the HCP handled it badly and as I wasn't there I can only speculate having observed antenatal groups, both NHs and NCT about what went wrong and how it could've been put right. The Op obviously felt annoyed/ aggrieved or something to create the thread.

So the HCP could've done more from OPs point of view but what? Offered to give info out at the end to anyone who wanted it? Told them to discuss it individually at their next antenatal appointments? Give them a hand out? Discussed formula feeding there and then? And discuss what exactly? I can see potential pitfalls in all those scenarios where the HCP could do potential harm to one of the mums present.

It seems I've already caused a problem with the description of breastmilk.

antumbra · 15/03/2015 13:45

Demographic do play an important part in understanding breastfeeding though.

Women from lower socio-economic backgrounds are far less likely to breastfeed then their middle class affluent educated counterparts.
Unpalatable but true.

sparkysparkysparky · 15/03/2015 13:49

So what? re demographics.

sparkysparkysparky · 15/03/2015 13:52

And Sadie, Hcps cater for one interest group - ebf mums. The rest can go to hell. And frequently do through lack of care.

livingzuid · 15/03/2015 13:52

It is wrong to blanket assume a) all women from poorer backgrounds are not bf, b) that they don't give a shit about it or how they respond to their babies (and both points apply to women no matter their social background) and c) to use it as a point of ridicule with women who have demonstrated time and time again the struggles they have had.

Furthermore, demographics are most certainly not the only reason for abysmal bf success rates in the UK and it is wrong to single them out in such a manner.

It is ridiculous to generalise.

PurdeyBirdie · 15/03/2015 13:56

I am one of those socioeconomically-deprived women and I can tell you that neither me nor my working class sisters have been taken in by the bullshit propaganda that attests to a stronger bond if mum breastfeeds baby. We all adore our children and all of us ff. Strangely enough, what with our sink estate education and limited life chances, we all knew immediately how to read the simple instructions easily on the Aptimil cartons. We did all of us attempt to by but felt that the pain/bleeding/ public tit-lobbing-out/inconvenience/sofa-enslaving nature of breastfeeding wasn't for us.

None of our tots have been half as ill as some of the snivelling bf nippers we see at baby groups.

livingzuid · 15/03/2015 14:00

sadie at the very least hcps can signpost towards impartial resources on ff. That would take seconds to do as well as provide a realistic picture of what alternatives there are should a woman find herself unable to bf. To do anything less is irresponsible. Those first few hours and days after labour are far, far away from the rosy marketing picture we are sold.

Nothing can prepare you for the impact of being a parent but you can at least feel like you have an adequate knowledge of all your options so you can make informed choices at the right time. Currently that is not the case.

PurdeyBirdie · 15/03/2015 14:01

...and get your facts right, lizard; breastfeeding is politicised and propaganda-driven and exactly why we lower classes are happy to ff. We just bloody get on with it.

PurdeyBirdie · 15/03/2015 14:02

*livingzuid not lizard.

livingzuid · 15/03/2015 14:03

Well done for trying to keep a pointless class was going purdy. I certainly am not your sister so don't be so arrogant as to assume you speak for me.

livingzuid · 15/03/2015 14:07

And wow lucky you for never being affected by any mental health problem before, during or after pregnancy. Would you like a medal too for your selfless service of society by just 'getting in with it'? Because of course you are speaking for all women and your experience is therefore what all of us must comply to?

Yet again another Biscuit for you and that enormous chip you are carrying around. Urgh.

shitebag · 15/03/2015 14:15

Purdey why did you feel the need to add that you all attempted to breastfeed if not one of you was "taken in by the bullshit propaganda"?

I formula fed my first through choice then I breastfed my second until 16 months again through choice. Neither are "snivelling nippers"

I am thoroughly working class from a deprived area although I'm not sure what that has to do with anything

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