Refusal to discuss formula feeding at parentcraft class

[obeliaboo]

AIBU? Ready for the fire!
I've been told that in order for me to have a tour of my chosen hospital's delivery suite, that i need to attend 'parentcraft' classes.
Yesterday was exclusively about breastfeeding, fair enough, didnt know that of course until we got there.
So, as the midwife goes on about breastfeeding and support, I enquire what is the support for those who fall into small percentage of mums who cannot breastfeed. Simple question.
"What do you mean?".
I had to ask again, and put it across that i intend to breastfeed, but what if i cant, what if my milk doesn't come in. It happens, it happened to my eldest sister, its nothing to be ashamed of so whats the harm in asking and what is the support in that situation.
"We don't discuss artificial feeding".
Seriously?? I understand the necessity to promote breastfeeding is a priority for the NHS, because it seriously needs normalising, but to just object to even touching on the subject of formula feeding really riled me. I felt like i was at a propaganda session! She instead continued to address breastfeeding and a specific brand of electric breast bump at a specifc well known retailer.
Is this what the NHS supports? Big business's and there overpriced products (the specific one mentioned was over £100, I am not in a position to be able to afford something like that for a start), under the guise that 'breast is best', its the best start for baby - and insinuating that formula is the devil when for some poor souls, it is the only option?
AIBU for finding this absolutely snotty and condescending? There are mums out there who are underconfident, or genuinely don't lactate, mums who have gone through breastcancer and mastectomies etc, so why are these midwives refusing to even consider discussing both options.
Why make it militant and harder for those who simply can't, to speak up without feeling ashamed?
FYI this is the 3rd midwife i've had ranting at me over this.

minifingers Attitudes like yours (also much in evidence on natural birth/intervention threads) are the reason so many women beat themselves up needlessly. I hope to God you aren't in any "caring" profession.

and a happy mother's day to minifingers and Co. The effect on the mental health of mums without feeding support has obviously left you unmoved. Feeding your new baby can be tough. For everyone. ff is not the cop out easy solution you might think. Read this thread and find out why.

The OP wasn't asking for instructions on how to make up a bottle. There is zilch emotional support for women ff. Not being able to bf led straight to pnd. So give me your cracked nipples and thrush any day antrumba. It's better than not being able to enjoy my baby at all or nearly dying, which was my case. I also had mastitis too from not feeding.

People have already suggested the joint groups which is a good idea. It's not a competition and people should support each other not bitch about it. Some of these comments are beyond depressing.

The refusal to discuss ff is stupid. There is a lot of misinformation about how to make up bottles (including on Mumsnet threads) and frequency of feeds etc. Given most babies will have formula a pragmatic approach to demonstrating safe preparation would seem the most sensible.

However ff once understood and 'established' (for want of a better word) is pretty easy from a practical point of view. Emotionally it can be horrible, as I discovered. Feeling inadequate is not just something related to bf Antumbra.

Bf is hard to establish however and even once established it changes from week to week as I am discovering this week with a coldy baby who refused to latch on at times despite being hungry.

I ff my DD and am bf my DS. Frankly it would be good if we were all a bit nicer to one another about how we feed our babies. At the end of the day they are being fed and fortunately in the UK with safe water etc the outcomes of each feeding method really aren't that different.

Love the way the bfing crusaders push bf to the extent they exaggerate an epidemic of poor little babies in hospital sick from formula but don't wish anything put in place which would pretty much stop any baby ending up in hospital for poor bottle prep reasons.

Such posters don't care about babies and they sure as hell don't care about mothers.

Very well said sparky, verypunny and littlebear The lack of empathy towards ff parents is really dismaying. And that just from professionals, let alone other mothers.

I'ma fucking idiot who made up formula wrongly for my baby. So is DH (we were putting the formula in first, then the water, so the ratios were slightly off.) He is largely BF (DS not DH!), just one formula bottle at night, but both of us fucking idiots, although generally not totally thick in other areas (both managed work as senior lawyers for example) in the fog of first time parenthood and sleep deprivation, managed to fuck it up for 3 weeks without realising and were massively panicky and upset when we realised because we didn't know what effect it would have on DS' health. None, as it happens because it was one feed out of 7 or 8 in a day but (a) it took an hour of frantic googlong and calls to the helpline to assuage our panic, and (b) there are probably other fucking idiots out there like me who can't or don't want to BF, and a bit of formula education might help both parents and child.

A quick run down on key things to know if you had to formula feed at an antenatal classes - why water/formula ratios are important, bottle hygiene etc would have been v helpful and might even have helped convince some people to BF.

Did anyone who struggled with making up formula phone the 24 hour helpline (number on the back of the tin)?

sleeponeday infant feeding specialist, yes exactly. No pressure either way, just help in feeding baby. Women who feel it is unnecessary minifingers can tell her that, everyone's happy.

What really disturbs me about this whole debate is that women either bf or ff end up feeling uncomfortable about feeding in public. There should be love and support for new mums and babies, both in society as a whole and amongst each other. Where did this judgement come from? Is it that society thinks that women who have just given birth shouldn't be seen?

"Very well said sparky, verypunny and littlebear The lack of empathy towards ff parents is really dismaying. And that just from professionals, let alone other mothers."

98% of mothers use formula.

That includes health professionals.

Ff mothers aren't a persecuted minority.

BF mothers aren't a persecuted minority either. I say that as a BFing mother of a 4 month old.

The number on the tin isn't 24 hours in case you're interested. I know because I called it out of hours.

And therefore, minifingers, a majority of mums are alienated by unhelpful, judgemental NHS policies. I would have bf for longer with support instead of being dismissed as a failure. It really is more complicated than you seem to think.

Did anyone who struggled with making up formula phone the 24 hour helpline (number on the back of the tin)?

But what about those who don't know they are doing it wrong? Bet they didn't feel the need to ring a helpline.

livingzuid= joint feeding groups do sound jolly. But they don't work.

minifingers the more posts I read from you on several subjects the more I think you have no concept or understanding of mental health needs and how your mind can make every day simple tasks that you can do standing on your head normally virtually impossible under certain circumstances.

This isn't women being 'lazy' or 'stupid' or 'badly educated' or 'weak'. This is women being ill and poorly supported in a variety of manners.

Often they will have been through a system that has failed them in some way and they are spat out the other end and left to it. Ideally they should be given support before they get to that point, but in the real world even where good support does exist, women do still fail through the cracks.

The likes of Norway and Sweden are looked up to in this country for having exclusive breastfeeding rates at close to 50% compared to our 7%. that's great. They are obviously doing something massively better than here to support breastfeeding. But that also ignore the fact that even then their support isn't managing to get rates of 80 or 90%.

I think sometimes its easy to assume that FF haven't tried BF either. Some won't and far play to them for making a positive choice for them. But for a lot they turn to formula after having gone through:

Nothig compared to thrush/crackednipples/oxytocin rushes/painful let down/mastitis/difficulty expressing/baby vomiting blood/prolactin migraine/mastisis/oversupply/poor supply/forceful letdown/breastfeeding in public/attitudes of partners and family/breastmilk exzema on nipples/problems with inverted nipples/nipple confusion/positioning/latching difficulties/tongue tie/leaking breasts/engorgement/feeling inadequate/hormonal influence on moods/ having to be careful what to eat or drink

and then in desperation they then turn to formula and are faced with the challenges that brings. And they have got to the end of the road with breastfeeding and have no other choice but to carry on (even if that means poisoning their child in the process). There is no where to go after that, so I think its plain daft to come up with phrases like 'I have yet to meet a ff mother who has been forced to stop bottlefeeding because of lack of help.' because of course you fucking won't.

I think this is where the difference comes in choices about feeding and giving birth - whether you view it as a positive or a negative thing and whether it matches your expectations from before hand.

FWIW, we bought ready made formula before DS was born. We did look at the powder but were baffled by it. It still baffles me so I'm very glad I didn't need it. We made a positive and thankfully successful decision to express (when I say positive decision, I feel it was because I decided to give up breastfeeding and focus on doing something I could rather than persisting in trying to do something I couldn't. I think this made it easier for me to be successful in the long run but its only something I recognise in hindsight and wasn't something I thought out like that at the time).

When I say 'we' I'm including my husband who is a very good Dad who chips in with everything, is a practical scout leader, has an off the scale IQ (he's maxed a test in the past), didn't have hormones floating around his system and before we had a baby to contend with. Yep he's stupid

So any time anyone says that someone is 'stupid' because they can't make up formula I do sit and question just how much they have thought about it and just what their level of understanding really is. And above all else I think they have a backwards understanding of mental health that smacks of belonging back twenty or thirty years ago at the very least.

I thought the ethos of this forum was supposed to be to try and support parents. I fail to see how turning around and kicking them in the face when they might be on their knees struggling by calling them 'stupid' fits that bill.

Women who decide to formula feed NEED support. Not to be slapped in the face and told they are 'stupid' if they are struggling.

so I think its plain daft to come up with phrases like 'I have yet to meet a ff mother who has been forced to stop bottlefeeding because of lack of help.' because of course you fucking won't.

Of course, Red, because to stop formula feeding would be to starve the fucking baby to death, so it was a ridiculous thing to say. But it seems "ridiculous" is minifingers' default position on feeding and birth threads, so I'm getting used to it now.

Thank you Red for taking the time to write a well thought out post. I wish I'd read this thread when I was struggling.

Why is exclusive BFing the gold standard? If the system was a bit more pragmatic re formula, BFing rates might be higher and people might BF for longer. Of 7 - 8 feeds a day, DS gets one 7pm formula bottle. All of the rest are BFs. It means he sleeps a bit longer at night, I get a bit more rest and after what can often be a long day with a small baby and have a nap or can go for a walk or a swim while DH feeds him.

And yet this is some sort of failure because he's not exclusively breastfed? We made a conscious, informed decision to mix feed, he's still getting all the Bfing benefits and his mother isn't a deranged-with-tiredness basket case. I had the confidence to do it because I'd seen my sister BF her DC for a year each while supplementing with one nighttime formula bottle, so I knew it was possible. My midwife looked like I'd said I was giving him a melted dog turd in a bottle.

DS has the same Gennz only he has his bottle last thing. I'm in bed sleeping and DH does it. We started when he was 8 weeks old. Its working really well for us but no one I met ante or postnatally would have suggested it. The NHS approach is all or nothing. They do themselves and us no favours.

Maybe follow on milk adverts could have health warnings/make up instructions given out loud at the end American style? Emotional support for mothers who wanted to breastfeed but didn't could help them breastfeed future children.

I think BF rates would increase if we (speaking as a NHS worker) were more pragmatic; the all-or-nothing approach unfortunately seems to backfire.

Mixed feeding, the odd bottle of formula, top-ups until milk comes in. These are all reasonable options but ones which we cannot be seen to suggest, as we can't under the baby-friendly initiative.

I think we do parents a great disservice by not informing them of options in feeding. We do in other areas of care, and encourage patient-centred choices. But not in infant feeding.

It's treating women like children, so patronising &indultong.

The instructions on powdered formula packets are fine if you are feeding to a strict routine but are utterly incompatible with demand feeding. You have to really look hard for approved on how to safely make up feeds in advance as it's not on the packets. The instructions themselves are not clear so anyone who is on here with'just read the packet' is not speaking from any personal experience or just being twatty.

Yanbu and I think the law Is an Ass not telling women that breastfeeding can come with major issues is ridiculous and formula is the alternative Is ok to use does me in

This debate is fascinating.

I will have to FF due to the med I need to go back onto once baby here.

But I'm trying to do research into formula feeding in general

And using lots of helpful points made here to help

Gennz I read the WHO recommendations as to why BF gold standard.
This is going to be highly paraphrased as I'm to lazy to cut and paste from the report but the gist of it is:

WHO have to write a generic one size fits all recommendation for ALL countries based on what is required for FF. Which means considering the following:

-do people access to clean drinking water?

• do they have good standards of literacy?
• if so, can they sterilise bottles/boil water hot enough for feed?

In addition to the above, can they afford to buy FF/equipment to feed, is it readily available (and not dependent on governments blocking import/export)

On the other hand BF is "easy access". However the who guidelines also stress the importance that breastfeeding feeding mums should have a nutritionally well balanced diet in order to provide all the nutrients needed for baby to grow.

It also states that there should be a good standard of post natal care with hcp's able to assist/encourage/work through problems.

(As I said I'm just giving the gist of it. No doubt I've picked up some of it wrong)

What is key though is that BECAUSE we follow WHO advice for most things (and Scotland were part of the countries involved in writing the guideline) as a nation it has to be promoted as gold standard.

However, imo there are many people who say it is easy but when you start nit picking and asking questions they reveal all sorts of problems. This is where woman let each other down. It's not a competition. Nobody truly knows what to expect when doing BF so don't realise the problems that can occur, so then fall into a horrible downward spiral of being a failure. When they are not, they just need a wee bit of support and advice from PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN THERE BEFORE.

I work in a highly complex environment. I sure as hell wasn't just left to get on with it without as supernumerary period to ensure I knew what I was doing!! Information is key

Oh and to whoever said about wanting to be shown how to put nappies on.... until my nephews came along I'd never needed to. I thought I'd figured it out but actually had put it on back to front. Cue lots of laughter on my part.

Anyway happy mothers day everyone

Lol at 'persecuted minority'. I don't see anyone calling themselves that. But do carry on throwing out random statistics backed up by nothing and refusing to answer questions. It all adds up to your argument being worthless. Really, if what you post is the level of support new mothers receive then no wonder there is such a crisis.

antrumba oh you were being sarcastic. How constructive There are successful mixed feeding groups that I and my friends have attended in The Netherlands and Sweden. So actually yes, they can work. So I wonder what it is in the groups you refer to that didn't work

There are some excellent posts on here too refuting some of the nonsense being spouted.