Refusal to discuss formula feeding at parentcraft class

[obeliaboo]

AIBU? Ready for the fire!
I've been told that in order for me to have a tour of my chosen hospital's delivery suite, that i need to attend 'parentcraft' classes.
Yesterday was exclusively about breastfeeding, fair enough, didnt know that of course until we got there.
So, as the midwife goes on about breastfeeding and support, I enquire what is the support for those who fall into small percentage of mums who cannot breastfeed. Simple question.
"What do you mean?".
I had to ask again, and put it across that i intend to breastfeed, but what if i cant, what if my milk doesn't come in. It happens, it happened to my eldest sister, its nothing to be ashamed of so whats the harm in asking and what is the support in that situation.
"We don't discuss artificial feeding".
Seriously?? I understand the necessity to promote breastfeeding is a priority for the NHS, because it seriously needs normalising, but to just object to even touching on the subject of formula feeding really riled me. I felt like i was at a propaganda session! She instead continued to address breastfeeding and a specific brand of electric breast bump at a specifc well known retailer.
Is this what the NHS supports? Big business's and there overpriced products (the specific one mentioned was over £100, I am not in a position to be able to afford something like that for a start), under the guise that 'breast is best', its the best start for baby - and insinuating that formula is the devil when for some poor souls, it is the only option?
AIBU for finding this absolutely snotty and condescending? There are mums out there who are underconfident, or genuinely don't lactate, mums who have gone through breastcancer and mastectomies etc, so why are these midwives refusing to even consider discussing both options.
Why make it militant and harder for those who simply can't, to speak up without feeling ashamed?
FYI this is the 3rd midwife i've had ranting at me over this.

DS decided to drink 1oz every hour-hour and a half, didn't say that on the box anywhere!

and the "cost" isn't that bad, your talking ten quid maybe twenty quid a week most, I bought 12bottles at 16pound on sale, a 8 quid microwave steraliser on sale and a 1 pound bottle brush hardly extortionate

Livingzuid three weeks after PFB was born I rushed to hospital barely conscious and in no fit state to breastfeed. Dh was left literally holding a squealing exclusively BF baby. Yes those leaflets are basic but we would have give our eye teeth for them at the time. Dh had no idea what he needed to buy in terms of equipment, which milk, how to sterilise etc emotional support would have been lovely too but the first priority for him was feeding a screaming baby. Mine was staying alive. I couldn't even advise by phone as ambulance crews are not overly keen on people taking their oxygen masks off to talk on the phone.

No one ever suggests you should be know about both just in case!

Plus it doesn't tell you on the carton which teats, which bottles etc

Thankfully we had Dm and Dmil. Dh was well capable but screaming babies and hospitalised wives are stressful events.

For those wanting some emotional support or just to read other women's experiences, I really recommend the Fearless Formula Feeder blog. It's a really supportive place.

www.fearlessformulafeeder.com

That was why we had an emergency thing of formula in the cupboard carrie, and were also glad that it had all been discussed at Nct classes.

Just like a c-section, you may not have planned for it but some people will need to formula feed.

what about FF needs discussing???

Perhaps RTFT?

formula feeding isn't better for health ff is better for the health than starving, I expect. Which is what happens when babies don't get fed! My 4lb premmie was so hungry after repeated failed attempts to bf with NO help (I was in hosp for 5 days due to section) she devoured 2 of the hospitals premade bottles with little to no effort.

Oh & I never once had any one on one help for bf.

When I had dd2, (in Australia) they were falling over themselves to help & I bf her for 5mths. BECAUSE of the great support.

Back of Aptamil packet: 0-2 weeks, 6 feeds a day. Yeah right, ds had about 12 feeds a day, dd around 15 at that stage. Big shock first time round but prepared for it the second! YY! I am 12k miles away from my niece & she skyped me recently asking for advice on ff her baby girl! She wouldn't take her breast as she is very small breasted, so was told to ff. DN was concerned about the amount of formula her dd was guzzling (and frequency) and couldn't find any answers that helped.

Dr/HV = babies will only drink what they need
mum = I can't remember all that, it was SO long ago.
Dad = no idea, mum did all that.
Friends had no idea she is the first in her circle to have a baby!

So she skyped ME, 12k miles away for advice. Relating the instructions on the formula tin wrt to frequency of feeding, amounts etc was so fucking confusing for both of us & I ff dd1 exclusively & partly fed dd2.

In the end we worked it out I told her not to worry as long as her dd was getting at least that & not too much more, and plenty of wet/dirty nappies. I also told her to find a better dr/hv

But I am sure, to prevent young first time mothers thinking their only means of support is an aunt, several thousands of miles away that health professionals should know better!

Babies don't care that breast is best, it is going to hurt babies a whole more to deny ff as an option than to embrace it, accept the fact that it exists & some mums DO find it easier & fucking help them!

Op can I just unpick your post a little bit?

"AIBU for finding this absolutely snotty and condescending? There are mums out there who are underconfident, or genuinely don't lactate, mums who have gone through breastcancer and mastectomies etc, so why are these midwives refusing to even consider discussing both options.
Why make it militant and harder for those who simply can't, to speak up without feeling ashamed?"

It seems very personal, emotional and defensive. You were in the right to ask about ff in the session but it seems that you took offense with the reply you received - did you actually feel ashamed for asking the question in front of the group or about ff?

I have worked with groups of postnatal women - feeding is one topic that is routinely discussed.

Feedback from this topic suggests that mums who want to bf before birth and bf with little or no problems after birth are ok.

Mums who want to ff before birth and ff after birth are also ok.

Mums who want to bf before birth and find bf difficult, have problems and switch to formula have lots of issues and tend to be unhappy, defensive and even see themselves as failures. Sometimes they are angry with external issues such as other mothers, health professionals, NHS policy and our wonderful media. Some also express anger with themselves for failing, pressure put on themselves, guilt.

It is one topic that is really difficult to present from a balanced stance because all tend to be in agreement that breastmilk is nutritionally superior to formula. Even that description immediately sets up mums for a fall and discussion has yet to come up with a way to promote breastfeeding without it affecting the mums who feel guilty for formula feeding.

Which can be fixed - the way bf is promoted or the way it makes people feel?

All formula feeders expressed that breastfeeding needed promotion before birth and support after. Support for ff was obtained from HCPs, other mothers and fact sheets provided by unicef, nct and the NHS. These leaflets are judged great by some and patronizing by others as the literature has to conform to non promotion.

We live in a world of information and health promotion. We are aware of risks and responsibility. We live in some respects a controlled lifestyle. Yet having babies is very much a maelstrom of expectations and realities - every single mum I've encountered has with hindsight talked about needing an open mind, a thick skin and a willingness to self forgive when things don't go according to plan. Yes other mothers, HCPs, media etc can be upsetting but only if you let them-(Easy to write -hard to accomplish).

Op
I think yanbu to find out about ff.
I think yanbu to ask a hcp about it, I think the hcp should have dealt with it better, however I think you should've accepted it wasn't the right time to bring it up during the session. Maybe at the end?

I think you should ask yourself are you worried about not being able to bf?

It interesting that there's quite a few other preemie mums on this thread (and makes me feel a bit better)

Its great if people do get a box of formula as a back up, that's very good advice. However, I had nothing ready at all as I hadn't packed my bag or finished work etc. I had done any classes or made contact with any support groups.

I was sent home from hospital as detailed further up the thread - failure to bf, no milk came in, DS was losing weight at an alarming rate. On discharge I was told to use the same formula. Ok simple I thought. Nutriprem was not in ANY shops (and this was in London) and I found out I needed a prescription from googling. It was then late and had to give DS some normal cow and gate from the shop. Luckily I lived in an area with late night opening. Nowhere on the box does it say what to give your preemie who's not had this formula before. I found out (again from internet) that you're supposed to gradually introduce a change in formula. So I fucked that up.

It would've been worse if I'd been in my hometown where there's no broadband and one shop!!

Support from midwives - they were rushed off their feet so not much there.
Support from HV - didn't see one until DS was 5months actual age
Support from friends - kind of, but most had bf with no trouble so didn't really get it. They certainly didn't know about feeding a preemie (set alarm, tickle feet, try to get them to feed)

People give me advice NOW which is feck all use. "You should've got donor milk" how, from where? No use telling me now "You should've persisted" and let DS get to 5lb? 4lb? 3lb? How long should I persist? "You shouldve pumped" I pumped like crazy, still nothing. And the suggestion that money or a voucher would've got my milk to come in would be hilarious if it wasn't a serious proposal by some think tanks

It's great that many of you got support from midwives, family, HV, NCT etc but not everyone does

Oeoe expect FF babies feed like little robots exactly as the package says?! Yeah right. When we switched to FF after a lot of weight loss and two months expressing DS still only took tiny amounts on demand exactly as he always had, he didn't chug down the prescribed anount 4 times a day! He'd have days of drinking far less, days of refusing the bottle, days of funny poos where I'd wonder if I should switch brands etc. He's still at 7 months having many smaller feeds then 'the packet' says. So mothers with FF babies need support as to what can be normal in a FF baby. Because there's not some wealth of difference between FF and BF babies.

MY HV was brilliant. I was very stressed about being pushed into breastfeeding. She turned up before DS was born and gave me leaflets for both. It lifted an enormous weight off my shoulders.

At the time I was pretty indifferent about FF and BF. I think both have advantages and disadvantages. And I think the way BF is being promoted in the UK is hugely counterproductive.

When DS arrived, hormones kicked in... I HAD to breastfeed. It didn't work out to be as simple as that. DS shredded me. I got massively upset but could not face seeing another counsellor as by that point I was so fed up of the same crap, and not really being very helpful. It was adding to the stress not relieving it. I'd had three people say he hadn't got tongue tie and two say he had very slight tongue tie. I had people saying I was doing it right, but he still wasn't latching and was getting very upset every time came near me. I did look into chasing up the tongue tie possibility, but the NHS looked like it took forever and since I needed something immediate that was about as useful as a chocolate tea pot.

I was saved by a neighbour who suggested expressing. I winged it for 4 months expressing only. No support (HV's hadn't a clue and despite trying couldn't offer advice). There's also very little on the internet about it. The most you'll find is generally not to do it 'until breastfeeding is established at about 6 weeks'. Again a bit fucking late.

DS got it, all by himself without me trying endlessly and destroying my sanity in the process at about 4 months.

Interestingly, DS weight had been dropping centiles and this was stressing me out massively and I was beginning to feel pressured to FF. DH said this is bollocks. He pulled the WHO centile chart for Norway. Its done exactly the same as the UK one; the only difference is the breast feeding rate in Norway is significantly higher.

DS followed the Norwegian curve perfectly.

So I'm very mindful of just how much support FF mothers need - as I was going slightly loopy at not being able to breastfeed. I think existing breastfeeding support is barking up completely the wrong tree. I think the approach of the NHS ends up alienating both BF and FF women one way or another over time which is appalling, as neither group is being served properly. And I think there are even more alternatives than just pure FF or BF too.

In short.

Advice. Not. Fit. For. Purpose.

midwife told me that ds would give up breast feeding if I mixed fed. I suppose she was right, but I had to wait two and a half years of chewed boobs to find that out.

I was really upset when the dr told me that i had to give dd a bottle for both our sakes as nobody was sleeping. I remember clearly her first bottle. put the teat in her moth and she had a what the heck expression and tried to push it out, then some milk must have dribbled out as she then proceeded to empty the bottle in one go. my emotions though were harder to deal with. it felt a failure. it was not a failure but I could have done with a little support.

it is not as easy as it would seem to formula feed. all those teats and winding and sitting at the right angle.

Roseotto Can you see the irony in your comment "is this what the NHS supports, big business and their overpriced products" about a breast pump? Have you any inkling of the damage and deaths wreaked in the developing world by the aggressive tactics of formula companies? - Yes , i am aware but this isn't about the promotion of formula feeding over breastmilk, it was about support and meeting the emotional needs of a new mother who cannot breastfeed and the midwife chose to advertise a bloody breastpump for heavens sake.

differentnameforthis Thankyou, i do feel like the question and point i was trying to make have been overlooked somewhat lol. Support, not instructions!

blacktreaclecat "I honestly think the way forward would be if everyone took a step back and stopped being so us/ them about baby milk.
Milk whether from breast or bottle is just milk. It should be about supporting mothers- all mothers" YES THANKYOU, that is my point!

Carrierpenguin How am i being unreasonable to want to know what options and support are there for me and my child if bf is not an option? How was i supposed to know this was breastfeeding session when at no point, was i given any indication it would be and at the end of the day, i asked a legitmate question! Where is the support for mums who cannot breastfeed - i didnt demand a demonstration on how to mix formula etc! You find that i struggle financially funny? Thats an incredibly spiteful thing to say. I dont have £100 upwards spare in the bank to throw at a breastpump because some midwife says so, i do however have a budget that sorts me every month and have been lucky to have family purchase odd bits incase, thanks.

Carrie5608 Nicely condescending - again, not about being taught to mix formula, this is about the emotional needs of a new mother who cannot breastfeed and the support from hcp within maternity. But a few tips on ff, sterislation etc wouldn't hurt would it.

SadieSimmons I didn't feel ashamed at all for asking, it just occurred to me at the session that everyone was nodding along, but that 'what if' you can't lactate struck me as a valid query. I don't see how it wasn't the right time to ask, she asked if any of us had any questions and that was my question, which i feel was relevant. I dont have some deep worry at all that i wont lactate/be able to breastfeed, im just that person who see's the wider picture and wants to find out, im indifferent about it, i just want my baby to feed at the end of the day, regardless of which method. I can't prepare or predict the future, more than any other expectant mother can, i just wanted to hear it from the mouth of a hcp instead of google.

This is about being a first time mum, not knowing what to expect, not having any experience first hand with newborns bar bloody babysitting - new mums, bf or ff need emotional support end of and this midwife wrote it off.

Your "milk not coming in" is EXTREMELY rare, it happens in about 2% of women. There is not an awful lot of point in discussing the solution to a problem very few women have. I mean, they barely even touch on c-sections at parentcraft, because only 1 in 5 women have them. Most women will have a normal delivery and then the capacity to breastfeed. It may be that the baby has issues latching, mothers nipples are sore, you get fast let down, baby clusterfeeds at 3am...these are all common problems and reasons for stopping, so it makes sense to base the class around breastfeeding support. After all, the NHS and WHO are legally bound to promote breastfeeding as the best way to feed your baby.

Secondly, formula feeding is clearly very simple. Fill a sterile bottle with milk. Give milk to baby.

Mummyluce You are missing the point. However 'rare', i'm inquistive and i would like to know there is support, how is that so hard for so many of the posters here, to grasp?
And formula feeding isn't that simple though, is it, as many many posters have said from there experiences.

Something that happens to 2% of woman care hardly be described as rare let alone extremely rare. That would mean mist hospitals would see cases of it every week. And the is only milk not coming in. There are a myriad of other reasons why mothers can't bf.

RE: advertising a breast pump.

I bought one pump. It was only light duty. It died after a couple of months.
Another pump someone gave me. It died.
I tried to replace them. Bought another. It simply didn't do what it was supposed to.

In the end I got one which was expensive. Its still going strong and ten times better than all three of the others.

I could put money on which one your midwife suggested obeliaboo. And I bet it wasn't because the NHS were getting any kick back from it. Its because it simply does the job better.

Had I bought that pump in the first place, it would have saved me a lot of time, heartache and money in the long run.

I personally have no issues with an NHS employee suggesting a product, if its on merit and recommended by other women rather than being promoted in anyway by a commercial company.

There is support if you ask for it after the baby comes, are people really getting left to deal with it on their own? I accessed mine through a health visitor and a children's centre?

RedToothBrush I do not have the money, to throw at an expensive top of the range breastpump, it's as simple as that - i dont know if the NHS does get any kickback from the brand/store she pushed, but i do know that she was suggesting one of the most costly. Surely there are others that are more affordable that can do the job equally as good?

Oh, and I was loaned an electric pump for nothing through midwife/HV when I was breastfeeding my daughter, if that's useful for anyone worrying about £100 for a pump.

Secondly, formula feeding is clearly very simple. Fill a sterile bottle with milk. Give milk to baby.

Breast feeding is clearly very simple. Whip out a boob and place nipple in the baby's mouth. Give milk to baby.

Have you even bothered to read this thread?

Hi obeliaboo

Ok I would agree it was a valid question to ask especially as prompted. Bear with me but as a first time mum you've nailed it about predicting the future and the unanswered question about what to expect as no one can answer it correctly. The HCP may have felt stuck between a rock and a hard place because how can you accurately answer a 'what if'?

Unfortunately with a lot of parenting questions there are simply not right universal answers. At least this thread has thrown out some ideas for support as well as highlighted the potential problems. If she had answered truthfully that only a small percentage of women are unable to breastfeed and some babies may also find it difficult would you have accepted that?

What did you want her to do?

Obeliaboo, I had no intention of buying one, and didn't buy one until I really, really, really needed one because of the cost.

We did work out though, that we would have spent more on formula over the same time period than the pump. I think we are just about at the point (at 6 months) where the pump(s) are working out cheaper.

I do hear what you are saying about having the money to invest up front in one though.

And no, there is no comparison between the models I've used. I had bought cheaper alternatives before getting the good one because of the same thinking that there couldn't be that much of a difference.

Sadly IME there is.

And with the benefit of hindsight I wish I'd listened to the wisdom of MN rather than panic buying or trying to cut corners.

fan I believe it is the same as so much, dependent on where you live as to the help you get.

carrie the advice on both leaflets is no more than you get on a box of Aptamil and what I received with my Tommee Tippiee set. Sure if you need a quick once over it is fine but it doesn't do much aside from tell you how to make up a bottle of formula. And you should get that advice at hospital anyway. Otherwise it is not really enough.

I also object to breastfeeding always being pushed and advertised as being best on litetature. For some of us it is not at all and does not take into account the mental wellbeing of the new mothers.

As I have said a few times on this thread, the messages about bf are being targeted to the wrong audience and I have not seen much effort to try and reach those women who do need to understand fully their options.

Fanfuckingtastic it's great that there was a lot of support available to you - however you cannot generalise your experience to all areas. Where I live, the children's centres are being closed, health visitors barely have time to deal with child protection/child in need, the nearest NCT meets are 3 bus rides away, and home start has a waiting list. Even something as simple as a helpline can be inaccessible to a parent who maybe doesn't have a landline or enough mobile credit for a long conversation.

I am lucky in that I have access to google, a phone, friends to support. I get support etc "by the book" from professionals because I work with them on a professional basis (it's amazing how differently I was treated when certain midwives etc realised they had worked with me) however I will say that breast feeding support in my local hospital is shocking and there is no follow up - they didn't even know where the nearest bf support group was.

I do feel there needs to be more emotional support for new mums across the board.
I would also be interested if there has ever been any research into links between bf/ff and instances of pnd, from the perspective of feelings of "failure" if not breastfeeding etc.

Sorry I meant to add that for both types of feeding the advice is so generic - hence the basic I suppose as they are trying to cover x millions of families. But it could still be improved upon.