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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

"Bless you"

248 replies

Thistledew · 08/03/2015 12:06

I'm not talking about a response to a sneeze, but AIBU to find it patronising and irritating to my atheist ears when people decide to "bless" me for just going about my daily life.

I have a couple of Christian relatives who do this. Some recent examples when they have let the need to say "bless you" have included me serving them lunch at my house, or telling them about time I have spent with an elderly and frail relative (not a chore, I enjoy spending time with them) or talking about a health problem that I am working to overcome. It seems I can't tell them about anything that is part of my daily life without them saying "Oh Bless you"! I don't need or want any special recognition for something that is quite ordinary to me.

I think it annoys me in part because amongst non Christians "Awww, bless!" is what you might say when seeing something cute and slightly daft, and it surprises me that my Christian relatives don't seem to realise this. Also, it seems to be part of a bigger picture of them being quite condescending about their faith any my lack of it, and it feels a bit like them saying "I'm Christian and wonderful and can hand out blessings when you manage so well at daily life despite your lack of faith".

So AIBU to be irritated by this? Should I feel grateful? Or do I just need to work harder at letting it fade into white noise?

OP posts:

Sallyingforth · 09/03/2015 12:45

We are all born atheists
Oh dear. Surely you can do better than that old quip.

We are all born without the ability to read or write. Should we all stay ignorant?

capsium · 09/03/2015 12:46

We are all born atheists.

This is a belief antumbra. It is not something that can be proved or disproved. Unless there has been a newborn that speaks....and has said what they believe or don't. Even then it would only prove what is possible.

ZoomZoomToTheMoon · 09/03/2015 12:50

There is a big difference between the beliefs of religious people and the beliefs of atheists.

Religious people need faith because there is a lack of evidence and empirical coherence to what they believe. Many religious poeple make much of this importance of faith triumphing over doubt.

As a non-believer I don't have "faith", I work out what I think on the basis =of evidence and science. This is always changing, and I go with the latest understandings and discoveries.

Ask 20 scientists around the world what makes a plane fly, and they'll give you the same answer, that's because this is evidence-based and can be proven.

Ask 20 religious people around the world who made the world and you'll get a load of different answers, none of which can be proven.

That's the difference between belief, and rational thought.

Religious people are of course also capable of rational thought. Ask those 20 religious people if they would like to be 30,000 feet up in their and rely on the power of prayer to keep them up, or if they would rather be in a plane designed and built by an engineer that relies on scientific fact to keep it in the air, and they'll mostly choose the plane.

Sallyingforth · 09/03/2015 12:55

There is a big difference between the beliefs of religious people and the beliefs of atheists.
No difference at all. Neither belief can be proven. There is no proof of a God and there is no proof that there is no God.

Ask those 20 religious people if they would like to be 30,000 feet up in their and rely on the power of prayer to keep them up
Nonsense. They get in the plane because they know it flies. Period.

capsium · 09/03/2015 12:57

Zoom Atheists do not have the monopoly upon rational thought. Any belief an atheist holds is as much a belief as one somebody religious holds.

Atheists are capable of beliefs. Atheists are also capable of rigidly holding onto beliefs, for which there is little evidence for or against, for example, antumbra's belief that we are born atheists is one I have heard her express before (if I am not mistaken and mixed her up with another poster). This rigidity is a kind of faith, though not one that is part of a religion.

There are many Christians who work in fields which involve studying and practicing the sciences too.

ZoomZoomToTheMoon · 09/03/2015 13:12

Yes, but if they really thought prayer worked, they would rely on it. They don't.

Of course atheists are also capable of irrational thought too.

I call myself an atheist but my rational conclusion is that any sensible atheist is actually an agnostic. I don't think there's a god, based on the evidence. But I also understand that I can't know that.

BarbarianMum · 09/03/2015 13:23

SuggestmeaUsername · 09/03/2015 13:28

If we expected God to solve all our problems and do everything for us and prevent bad things from happening, we would never evolve or learn to do anything for ourselves

capsium · 09/03/2015 13:32

Zoom Prayer can work in a variety of ways. God can work through people and serendipitous 'coincidences' - not just miracles. Personally I do rely on prayer. There is risk in most of decisions I make, there are very few decisions which anyone can make that are totally risk free because we do not know the future. I pray I make the right decisions.

capsium · 09/03/2015 13:37

^Attempting to quantify risks does not always offer the greatest rewards either, although many prefer quantifiable risk. The Ellsberg paradox shows this.

PlumpingIsQuiteUpForScrabble · 09/03/2015 13:44

I have only read the first 5 posts of the thread but wanted to say that THIS (fucking praise the Lord you atheist she devil) is the best thing I have read ever and I will use it from now on.

Thank you Mumsnet!

Sallyingforth · 09/03/2015 13:50

Yes, but if they really thought prayer worked, they would rely on it. They don't.
You are attempting to project utter nonsense into other peoples' minds.
And failing miserably.
People get into planes, or cars, or boats, because they know they work. This has nothing to do with belief, just a trust in the humans who designed and operate them.

ZoomZoomToTheMoon · 09/03/2015 13:54

OK, but either god is all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, all-loving, loves you more than you can ever possibly imagine and all that the bible teaches, or he isn't.

If he is, he would step in and prevent suffering. But he doesn't. That was Fry's point.

I understand that when faced with this paradox, Christianity (and religions generally) comes up with a whole load of "complexity" and "oh but we have to take responsibility for ourselves" and "oh but we have faith" etc and that becomes part of the belief system too. It has to, or all religious people would have to acknowledge it doesn't add up.

But from a rational viewpoint, it doesn't add up. And that's why it's frustrating that religious believers get to have any say in the world and in things like politics and education. It's no different, to an atheist, than if it was people who believed in fairies and gnomes, or whatever.

ZoomZoomToTheMoon · 09/03/2015 13:58

My example is simplistic, because I'm boiling it down to basics. (It doesn't mean I don't have a more complex understanding of what's going on)

Why doesn't god step in? He could save people from all kinds of suffering and misery that is often no fault of their own. It's all very well saying "oh well prayer isn't like that" but why isn't it?

The glaring answer seems to me to be because god isn't there, so he can't step in. I understand that believers will find a way around that.

salthill · 09/03/2015 14:00

Ask 20 religious people around the world who made the world and you'll get a load of different answers, none of which can be proven.
if you believe in God you will also believe that He made the world.
Ask 20 scientists around the world how was the world created and they will do their best to tell you about a Big Bang and star dust and all that. Ask them then to explain how the sun and the moon is positioned so perfectly from the earth in order to sustain life (the odds of it being coincidental are so huge as to be nearly incalculable) and he won't be able to tell you. Scientists cannot tell us the answers.
Scientists can tell us what makes a plane fly, but if that plane starts dropping from the sky it won't be them we'll be saying our prayers to.

capsium · 09/03/2015 14:00

It does add up, Zoom because life is not simple, life is amazing and complex. There still much for human kind to learn about, if life were simple we would know everything there is to know by n ow.

People have had the capability of rational thinking for, lets see, how many years is it? Rational thought cannot solve everything.

Politics itself involves all sorts of beliefs, examine any policy of the political parties - they are not based on hard facts, there are assumptions upon assumptions.

salthill · 09/03/2015 14:13

Why doesn't god step in? He could save people from all kinds of suffering and misery that is often no fault of their own.
Why should we assume that that is Gods way, to "step in to every kind of suffering". Why should we think our ideas of how we think God should react to suffering is His way. We all suffer in different ways, admittedly some far more than others, and then it's so easy to either blame God or deny his existence. But if we believe in God we also believe in Eternal Life, surely then our time on earth isn't going to be a Utopia style existence where there is no pain or suffering. What on earth would be the point of being here. That is for the next life surely.

ZoomZoomToTheMoon · 09/03/2015 14:15

But then why did god create a world with so much suffering in it and deliberately hurt humans too? He just set up a world full of trials as some kind of test? That's why he doesn't sound like a very nice person.

capsium · 09/03/2015 14:20

Zoom I think it is more to the point that God can comfort us in our suffering and offer hope (when there is non from a rational viewpoint) for the future. If, amongst so much suffering, there was no hope, what is there left to live for?

ZoomZoomToTheMoon · 09/03/2015 14:29

Well as a non-believer, I can still have hope and a positive outlook through times of suffering. Since God does not offer anything practical, like actually stepping in, there's just as much hope for those of us who don't believe. And often the things we hope for, like a cure for a disease for example, come from us - from humanity, science, rational thought, progress etc.

I should add to all of this that I don't have a problem with people believing, if it's comforting for them. I do however think that going about your life on the basis of evidence is not a "belief" and is objectively, more valid than evidence-free beliefs. But I understand that when you're inside a self-justifying belief system, you're not going to see it that way.

And I do have a problem with evidence-free beliefs having anything whatsoever to do with political policy, education or pronouncements on morality.

HazleNutt · 09/03/2015 14:36

"No difference at all. Neither belief can be proven. There is no proof of a God and there is no proof that there is no God."

No that's not how it works. There's a massive difference in believing something does not exist, because there is no proof that it does. And believing that something exists despite there being no proof that it does.

GallicCunt · 09/03/2015 14:36

God can comfort us in our suffering and offer hope (when there is non from a rational viewpoint)

This is one of those things that believers tend to see as their monopoly Strange as it may seem to some, we atheists can dredge up hope, trust & optimism from somewhere, too. It's a natural human quality, ably illustrated by the Pandora myth. I'd go as far as to say we all have faith - it's just that around half of us don't need to externalise it as some sort of ghostly third party.

capsium · 09/03/2015 14:38

And I do have a problem with evidence-free beliefs having anything whatsoever to do with political policy, education or pronouncements on morality.

Well, I expect you would have a problem with a lot then. There is lack of evidence everywhere, concerning politics, education and pronouncements on morality.

As I have said, even with rational thought we can not and have not explained everything and there is not conclusive evidence for everything. So there has to be assumptions made somewhere along the line. The thing is people do not always spot these assumptions, often it involves being able to read original studies upon which the policies etc are formed.

salthill · 09/03/2015 14:40

God didn't create a world with so much suffering. He created a world of great beauty, but he also gave us all free will. All the wars in the world are created by man not God. It will probably ultimately be man who destroys the world.

SuggestmeaUsername · 09/03/2015 14:40

If God did step in, we would not have evolved and developed the ability to cure diseases, build aeroplanes etc. We would just be puppets having strings pulled by God and being dependent on God sorting out all our problems. By Him stepping back and allowing us to get on with things, we have been given freedom to evolve and learn

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