To think the Uk Standards of beauty are suited to White people

[QueenofSouthLondon]

I have noticed as a black women that hardly any celebrities that are considered beautiful are black. In fact I can't think of one black (excluding mixed) or Asian British celebrity that is considered as beautiful by the whole nation.

Why is it that in this country we only find European features as attractive. It frustrates me as a black women that my features are not considered attractive outside my race.

So aibu to think this.

limegoldfinewine I really do not see goldvelvets posts as negative or anti black just because you grew up without any of the negativity aimed at black women doesn't mean that it's not true or doesn't happen

Rather off topic, and not presuming to lecture people on their own experiences, but dipping my toe in slightly to discuss a point earlier in the thread, re "Speaking to white people a large quantity will say they are not attracted to those of another race".

I don't know how this question was phrased, but if you asked me "Are you attracted to (for instance) Indian men?", I'd say no because that question implies I am attracted to them because they are Indian/I am attracted to Indian men collectively.

If the question was "Are you/have you been attracted to a man who is Indian?", then the answer would be yes.

Likewise, a general question of "Are you attracted to non-white men?" would elicit the same differing responses, depending on the phrasing of the question.

I think the phrasing of the question would very much determine the answer.

What has this got to do with individuals racism?

Read through and thechandler is completely wrong

limegoldfinewine

Are you kidding me? I've said that I want to see more black people in the media and not to have the pressure to have plastic surgery to alter their black features and feel like they need to wear a full head of someone else's hair.

I have also said that I want more dark skinned black women to be represented generally.

I have pointed out how light skinned women are often seen as being more attractive and is an attribute some woc strive to. (I think the skin bleaching industry proves this point) I have also said that I wish this wasn't the case.

I have pointed out that mixed characteristics are often universally seen as being more attractive (in the scale of attractive woc) So mixed people are more prominent in the industry. Although I would like a better balance of darker women with their natural hair as their beauty is just as striking but less ambiguous.

Naomi Campbell as a working supermodel has a weave of dark straight silky hair for aesthetics and not versatility and anyone saying otherwise is kidding themselves.

None of this is me being negative but pointing out true observations that I wish were different.

You on the other hand have pointed out that i'm not black enough to wear some hair styles and well not black enough in general as your 100% black trumps my 75%. And generally attacked my posts. So if anyones being negative I would say it was you in this case.

I think the OP is clearly right. It is particlarly obvious with black people. The ones shown in fashion ... just aren't very black.

People with very dark skins are better able to wear very bright colours without them clashing horribly with their skin. This means they are very confident in their use of colour. But - or so it seems to me - you have to go all the way to Darkest Africa to see this.

This is in such sharp contrast to the dominant culture across the West, which is based on very light skins, that it's hardly surprising that it's marginalised.

It's a great pity, because in Africa, people often dress and look absolutely amazing; I mean, really fabulous, particularly the women: nothing to match them anywhere.

Erm wtf

Natural black hair looks like "poorly groomed shit"?

I can't actually believe someone just sat down and wrote that.

DontDrinkandFacebook

Words fail me.

goldvelvet

Actually you (and the OP) went way further than that.

You stated that black women are not seen as attractive. Not less attractive. Unattractive.

Do you see why I might have a problem with that?

One of those things is like saying black people are discriminated against in the workplace. The other one is like saying that black people can't get jobs. Saying black people can't get jobs (or I'm sorry, dark skinned black people can't get jobs because as you so helpfully stated you are mixed race with "ringlets") is that it diminishes the black people who are out there working and succeeding and changing the world. It diminishes the huge strides that have been made. It discourages people from trying. Saying black women are not seen as attractive is a huge slap in the face against black women and is not true.

You think that exaggerating the prejudice black women face is a good thing. How can it be wrong? The problem is that racism requires gatekeepers. It requires communities to police themselves and diminish themselves for it to work. That's why hate crimes are so vicious. They are a warning to everyone that they are not safe.

When Barack Obama went to run for President, many older African Americans did not want him to do it. In fact there was some fear that they would vote against him. Because they were convinced he would be killed. They understood based on past events and serious prejudice that he would be discriminated against. And he was. But they were wrong about the extent. He faced some threats but he won. And he advanced the cause and representation of African Americans by doing so. If he had listened to the older AAs who were overly fearful and overly negative, he never would have run.

You keep stating that black hair is not seen as professional. I've pointed out that Sandie Okoro, HSBC Chief Legal Counsel who is black states this is not true, as does Diane Abbott (who is hardly shy re racism) and other black women. Would you like me to take photos of successful black women I know and post them? What evidence will it take? When you make statements like this, you actually discourage younger black women from wearing their natural hair! They are "helpfully" told by fearful and negative black people that black hair is not acceptable in the corporate workplace and they believe them. When the truth is that it is acceptable.

I find your whole perspective to be overly negative and overly fearful tbh. When I was growing up, I would say out of the 20 black girls I knew, maybe 2 or 3 were obsessed with being white. They were the ones who tried to look like Beyonce or wore coloured contacts. They probably felt as you did. But they were in a prison of their own making. And I will always challenge any attempt to "police" other black women into feeling shame where there is none.

DontDrinkandFacebook .... Or maybe DontDrinkandMumsnet....

ffs goldvelvet you brought up being mixed race and your hair. I pointed out that mixed race people and black people may get different reactions. Isn't that your whole thesis? That mixed race people get better treatment? I see, so if I state that mixed race people may get worse treatment in limited circumstances, I'm a racist, but you stating that darker skinned black people get worse treatment all the time is completely acceptable.

Wow, it's almost like in your world view, you need darker skinned people to be treated worse.

Limegold

You are the only one that has got that from my posts (funny that) so I state again that it is you that has the issue. You are reading what you want from my posts severely between the lines and adding extras.

Oh and please highlight the exact quote where I said that black women aren't seen as attractive.

Dontdrinkandfacebook not YOU need to watch Chris rocks good hair!
Your comments are ignorant at best. Racist at worst

GoldVelvet one to stick up for you - I have no idea why lime has interpreted them in the way she has, you've made some very fair and valid points

goldvelvet it's so funny that you position yourself as "progressive" because you are engaging in classic derailing.

theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/2008/02/12/the-privilege-of-politeness/

Not only do you keep calling out my tone rather than actually engaging in any of the arguments I've made, but you keep trying to marshal everyone else to disagree with me too. I don't need to ask other people on mumsnet to shout you down because I have plenty of evidence. You obviously feel that your arguments are not enough and want "backup" in the form of volume.

Thanks QueenBean I was starting to think I was loosing the plot as I can't understand how my posts are being interpreted in way that is completely alien as to how they are intended.

Dontdrinkandfacebook I never said black women were unattractive what I said was western beauty standards put black women and men in a situation that make them self hate themselves. These features eg thin nose, smaller lips and white skin are unachievable biologically without surgery or bleaching.

The most rasism on this thread has come from black and mixed race people and some white people themselves (yes you can be racist to white people as you can any over race). Saying black women should keep their natural hair is not racist it's true and although hair styles is a matter of choice.

Some people on here screaming racism offend ME. The google definition of racism is the belief of a superior on inferior race or the hatred and oppression of a race. Every time you say that something petty is racist it althoughs for worst forms of racism to prevail. Now let this be the end of any accusations of racism that are unjust on this thread.

I am also very glad things appear to be changing as well

limegold I wasn't aware that I was arguing with you? So I haven't put any arguments forward.

Although it seems like you want an argument with me for some reason.

Goldvelvet I sort of get what limegold is saying but mixed race people are treated differently compared to black people. I have a mixed dd.

I was the one that said mixed race people are treated differently QueenofSouthLondon.

I also pointed out that there are different degrees of mixed race My dad is mixed, I am mixed and so are my DC's. We all vary in colour spectrum and features. I look black. My Dad doesn't in colour of features. He is half Jamaican and half White British.

My Dc's are more olive skinned than him and are just over 1/4 black. Mixed is very ambiguous. I am mixed but look black for the most part so identify with being black.

How are you treated differently Goldvelvet? And do you think physical attractiveness plays a part in how females in general are treated?

I mean physical attractiveness regardless of colour or skin tone.
I'm not massively conventionally attractive, I'm white. I notice that my more attractive friends, of any colour, get treated differently. Slightly off topic but everyone experiences life differently.