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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to not pay an au pair other than room and board?

133 replies

smellysocksandchickenpox · 28/02/2015 14:13

now that I've got your attention, I'm not mean, I just want to know if it's legally possible?

Have a friend in desperate need of accommodation. Due to our deeds I cannot have a lodger but I can have an au pair.

I really want to help but I can't afford to PAY to have them stay. Can we do a straight childcare/home help for accommodation swap without any money involved?

Thanks

OP posts:
Original poster
smellysocksandchickenpox · 28/02/2015 14:58

She's already homeless and down the lowest pits of the housing list it seems, she's been to everyone CAB, contacted MP etc. She's spent the last weeks at appointments and job centre etc. The advice she's had has been that she will be in a better position moving forward if she can officially live here.

I don't understand this: www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-accommodation

OP posts:
TheCowThatLaughs · 28/02/2015 14:59

Could you pay her into her bank account but then she withdraws it and pays you straight back? Or is that fraud?

countessmarkyabitch · 28/02/2015 14:59

a maid would count much more as a lodger than as a au pair, iyswim. Also legally having a live in maid who you don't pay is commonly seen as slavery, which would probably break the lease. And the law.

Original poster
smellysocksandchickenpox · 28/02/2015 15:00

She's been to CAB, she needs to apply for offical residency. Her "future intentions" will look better if she actually LIVES here properly

OP posts:
Original poster
smellysocksandchickenpox · 28/02/2015 15:01

The cow that laughs - no, I'll do everything I can to help if it's above board but I'm not going down any del boy routes.

maid, au pairs, nannies… etc were all on the list for not counting as a separate family, I picked au pair as it was the only one on the list that I thought MIGHT not need a wage

OP posts:
ZebraLovesKnitting · 28/02/2015 15:01

If you're worried about what the freeholder may do/be pissed off about, then why not just ask the freeholder?

countessmarkyabitch · 28/02/2015 15:02

If she has a baby, hasn't she been offered emergency housing in a hostel or B&B. It might be that staying with you is actually preventing her from being offered this, since she does have someone to go, offical or not.

Original poster
smellysocksandchickenpox · 28/02/2015 15:02

(she had lived and worked here previously, but a separation and some bad luck has put her in a situation I'm sure she never imagined for her and her child)

OP posts:
traviata · 28/02/2015 15:03

The issue about being a 'single family unit' is about being an economic unit. There is no legal definition of an au pair nor 'family' for the purposes of construing the terms of a lease (there may or may not be a legally accepted definition for other purposes such as employment law).

A lodger pays in some form for the privilege of occupying their room, and they may or may not take meals with their landlords, but if they do, that will be reflected in the cost of the accommodation. The point about a lodger is that they have some independent rights of occupation and some protection under the law; members of your family can only come under the umbrella of whatever legal protection you have, and you would be responsible for their behaviour.

Provided you and your friend live as a family, eg you do things like laundry, shopping and cooking together for the whole household, and there are no 'no-go' areas within the house, she will be part of your family unit. Just as she would if (for example) she was your step-mother-in-law's cousin (ie not family by blood relation) whom you invited to come and live with you. Sharing the child care would be an excellent example of living as a family unit, and it would go against that if it was a transaction; ie your friend must not pay you for her accommodation by doing childcare, but you and she can agree informally that when you're out, she'll look after the kids.

By 'no-go' area, I mean that of course you and she would be occupying separate bedrooms, and as a matter of courtesy you would not expect to go wandering into each other's rooms, but that there would be no formal agreement under which you agree that you may not come into 'her' room except with her permission.

Original poster
smellysocksandchickenpox · 28/02/2015 15:04

countessmarkeyabitch, if I thought that would help I would "kick her out". But she's been officially homeless for some time now and not officially living here and trying with housing and she's not getting anywhere - she's exhausted all the usual routes, out every day seeing CAB or housing people etc

OP posts:
morethanpotatoprints · 28/02/2015 15:04

I thought if you were homeless with a child they would house you and you'd be a priority.
If you already have a home i.e your friend living with you, she would go to the bottom of the list.
This seems really strange, but I'm sure CAB are right.
Where do all the homeless sp go then?

Moniker1 · 28/02/2015 15:05

Who will know if she lives there.
Will neighbours see letters addressed to her at your house? They will see her coming and going you could tell them she is here from the foreign country to study for 8 months/ year. Speak to freeholder and tell him you have a distant relative staying as a guest for x months.

Stealthpolarbear · 28/02/2015 15:06

surely if shes homeless with a baby she should be a priority? rather than bottom of the list

traviata · 28/02/2015 15:06

Incidentally, the freeholder cannot just 'take back the deeds', he would have to go through a court process. I realise the last thing you want is a court case, but perhaps it's some reassurance that your home can't be just snatched away because someone thinks you've broken a rule.

Have you tried speaking to a specialist housing advice team? Try Shelter or Leasehold Advisory Service.

Original poster
smellysocksandchickenpox · 28/02/2015 15:07

That is how we have been living traviata, I usually cook dinner, she usually washes up, then I usually do bath: babies are bathed together then her kid usualy comes for story time with mine before going to bed.

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countessmarkyabitch · 28/02/2015 15:08

I know, but what I'm saying is even if she is not "officially" living with you, she is in actual fact living with you, she has a bed to sleep in, her child has a warm and dry place to sleep for tonight and tomorrow night etc? So in a system that is oversubscribed and understocked, they are giving the beds in hostels etc to those who aren't unofficially living somewhere, the ones who literally have nowhere else to go.

It could be that the best thing you could do for her is to ask her to leave. Once properly in the homeless system she will be able to access supports of other kinds.

Original poster
smellysocksandchickenpox · 28/02/2015 15:09

There's lots of people homeless with children. There's people homeless with six children. She's "just" homeless with one child, you would think that would be a priority but there's many others in similar or worse need :-(

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OnIlkleyMoorBahTwat · 28/02/2015 15:12

I know, Moniker. I find it hard to believe that, providing that the OP and her friend and the rest of the family behave like decent tenants, anyone else will notice or care exactly who lives there and their relationship/living arrangement.

But there was once a Mumsnetter who was threatened with eviction for hanging her washing out Confused.

Original poster
smellysocksandchickenpox · 28/02/2015 15:12

countessmarkyabitch we discussed that weeks ago and she's saught advice about it. I don't think it would be a short stint in an appointed BnB, there's lots waiting a long time in temp accomodation. She's looked into it and obviously we could quite legitimately say she "has" to leave using the deeds as a reason if that would in any way help

I don't want to post too many more of her details, that for her to share or not. But she's seen everyone there is to see and now needs an address.

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Original poster
smellysocksandchickenpox · 28/02/2015 15:15

yeah I know but its one of those buildings where children are barely tolerated as it is (But perfectly legal as nothing in the deeds). Lots of "old boys" types who were civil servants abroad and grew up with "help" living here.

The building is staffed etc.

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Original poster
smellysocksandchickenpox · 28/02/2015 15:16

great place to live if you want to avoid the "riff raff" and all night party/drugs neighbours…. until you begin to wonder if you have become the riff raff LOL

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traviata · 28/02/2015 15:17

sorry, I am not sure what you want to change?

Why can't she use your address, that is where she lives?

I get that you are concerned about the freeholder, but nobody has said anything to you about her having to go, have they? And the way you are living is as a single family unit.

it's a different question as to whether she would be better off if you told her to leave. Again, I suggest talking to Shelter.

countessmarkyabitch · 28/02/2015 15:19

I know thats likely, but long term temp accommodation might be the best thing in order to access supports. She's be in the system and could be working towards getting her own permanent place. Living with you isn't working towards anything, from the sounds of it.

I'm not sure why the hangup with having a "proper" address. Temp accommodation is an address. Staying with you temporarily is an address. She's EU so doesn't need to establish perm residency for visa purposes. What do you mean by "she needs an address"?

traviata · 28/02/2015 15:20

If you do want another description, and don't feel confident about the present set-up, you could call her a "live-in mother's help" instead of an au pair.

Original poster
smellysocksandchickenpox · 28/02/2015 15:21

she has been talking to shelter.

Her particular circumstances are her buisness so I won't go into all that but the advice she's had was to try and become our lodger, failing that some sort of official status in this home

She's also applying for official residency to help with her other claims, if she can't tick that she rents OR owns here it doesn't look great

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