Why do people think the NHS is so special?

[SnowBells]

There are always people around who proclaim the NHS is some sort of holy grail. It can't be touched, and don't even think about reforming it. The government may be offering free healthcare through the NHS, but nothing is really free, is it?!

My gripe with the NHS is that just like most institutions funded by the government, it becomes a big bureaucratic mess, where people are more concerned about ticking boxes than the actual patients. Most other developed countries have some sort of free healthcare that can actually be more effective than the NHS. I have lived in countries where, for example, health care insurances are mandatory, so that everyone has one (and a lot of times, employers contribute the bulk or the government subsidises it). Hospitals may be subsidised by the government, but GPs run their practice like a business, and rely on clients to earn their living (this means, they actually have to provide a bit of "client service" that's almost elusive here in Britain). You can make appointments with specialists directly - no need to waste time at the GP's practice when really, you needed to see, say, a gynaecologist.

Why is it that some hail is as the holy grail?

The sad thing is it leaves me wondering if snowbells is working somehow in the service of one of these insurance companies/ and or a Tory intern it seems like Cameron PR and not rooted in the NHS I know ....

Snowbells i was trying to draw the comparisons to the systems to make the point that it is essentially the same but if done via a private company then your money is partly going to shareholders as dividends. Isnt it great that nhs largely (there are private contracts in place) avoids this? If we went to private insurance then it would never go back to nhs regardless of whether it worked out and there would surely be tragic stories of peoples health being compromised by fat cats.

The problem is the nhs needs more money, and not who we give our money to.

BIWI

I know it's difficult to understand. "Statutory insurances" are not provided by companies as you seem to think. They are sort of quasi government agencies. Think of it this way - instead of you paying NI where you do not know where your money really goes, you know exactly how much you pay for the health insurance part. Instead of GPs, etc. getting an undisclosed sum, you know exactly how much you've paid for the services you've received. More transparency. Simple.

applecatcher36

Why do you think that someone who criticises the current system has an agenda? I'm just a consumer. End of.

Thank you TheSuperswimmingdolphin for your hard work. The nhs is amazing - yes it's not always super efficient like all big companies but the vast majority of doctors, nurses, HCAs etc etc are providing us all with amazing care, free at the point of delivery, which makes it better than any other healthcare system I have heard of. And the nhs doesn't pay well at all... Nurses and HCAs should be paid a lot more. Doctors who don't do private work earn a lot less than other professionals (looking at a comparable number of years of training).

So thank you Dolphin for working so hard, and dealing with so many people every day who don't realise how lucky they are to have you caring for them.

TalkinPeace

You keep on talking about the US, bringing up examples about the US. How many times am I meant to tell you I am not talking about the US?!?

The systems are completely different.

Beavington As mentioned above, the Statutory insurances are actually provided by what I would call state agencies. They are not insurance companies in the manner you think of. These agencies negotiate fees they pay to practitioners (maybe annually?), to make sure they get value for money.

It's difficult to explain it to an audience that is so used to thinking the UK has the only system in the world that provides all citizens with health care.

To add to the above^ ... Practitioners/Hospitals get paid per treatment, so you know exactly how much your treatment cost.

Thank you Didthatjusthappen

In Germany there is the problem of Zweiklassenmedizin, two tier medicine, with those privately insured getting seen quicker, getting better treatment etc

It is special because you never have to worry about whether you can get treatment and be looked after when necessary - we are very lucky. I have had a live birth, a miscarriage and am pregnant again and have had nothing but wonderful care.

It is abused by lots of people and badly run but it's concept is very special

There's that issue in Ireland too emkena.

But it's becoming obvious that the OP, for whatever reason, is choosing to ignore any comments from posters who are aware about that the UK isn't the only system in the world that provides all citizens with health care, and the flaws these posters have noted in these systems.

No idea why she wants the NHS to be so hated, the NHS is a good thing, especially when compared to counties where there isn't a public health service. She quite obviously doesn't want to accept that having a free a source service, even with flaws, is better, and should be appreciated, plus hasn't accepted any comparisons to other health services where the NHS is better.

I would assume that anybody who has a beef with the UK's health system has never been in the position of needing emergency life saving surgery.

Thank you to all who work in the NHS. You are the only people I have ever meet where I literally wanted to throw myself at your feet and kiss them.

OP thinks Germany perhaps has a better system (think I read that somewhere).
Well Germany don't have a better system, it isn't ranked as highly as the NHS. Also, in Germany people have to pay around 15% of their salary into the Healthcare system whereas in the UK it is much less.
15% of £30k is £4500pa, but according to this link the same earnings in the UK means an individual is contributing £1600pa towards the NHS.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10106437/Revealed-how-much-you-pay-towards-benefit-bill.html

The NHS is by no means perfect but I do think it is the best system in the world and it is one of the reasons that I would not want to live in any other country. There is lots of room for improvement but that doesn't mean that other countries have better healthcare systems.

But yes OP the healthcare system in Switzerland does sound decent. Premiums capped at a percentage of income, non profit insurance companies, plus a top up from the individual, also capped. But I bet it also has screw ups on individual levels.

It's also worth noting when you pay at source there is less abuse of the system, the down side being those that can't afford private insurance and can't afford the medical charges miss out. But quite frankly the public abuse of the NHS has a massive bearing in creating it's flaws.

Sorry £30k salary in the UK means a contribution of only £1233 to healthcare so even more superior than Germany then I thought.

This link is where I got the contribution rates for Germany
www.howtogermany.com/pages/healthinsurance.html

There are a number of publications which compare the health provision of different countries and the NHS is consistently at or near the top. There are limitations and improvements that are needed but these independent reviews show that it is high performing in terms of health, satisfaction and efficiency.

This article summarises: www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health

The Kings fund also gives a nice overview of this with links to reports:
www.kingsfund.org.uk/topics/nhs-reform/mythbusters/nhs-performance

I have needed to use health care systems in Europe, Asia and Oceania over the years- mainly for DS.

Although my insurance has (ultimately) picked up the bill we have had to make sure that the cash was available for each visit. Naturally, a 3 yr old with a 41 temp, violent vomiting and cramping tummy needs a dr- but knowing that I would need to show I could pay added to our stress.

I'm afraid that we all go on personal experience when it comes to the health of our families. For me, the NHS is amazing because an NHS practice nurse picked up in 3 minutes something a private, highly recommended Dr in Singapore had failed to notice. He was too busy telling me DS's illness was primarily caused by his not being circumcised. I am very aware that the nurse saved DS's life that day.

Not only is it free. It doesn't exist to line the pockets of share holders.

Privatisation of railways, energy companies has worked really well in terms of making rich men richer but has brought little advantage to the consumer of these services. I can't imagine widespread privatisation of health care would be much better. Plus just seems wrong to make profit out of illness.

The abuse of the NHS is awful too. They had a tally in my surgery of how many missed hours there were every week because of people not cancelling appointments. Some months it was well into the hundreds of hours. There should be a fine system if you don't have a good reason for skipping an appointment. They have it where I live and it really is an incentive to make sure you show up or cancel!

There are certain NHS Trusts that also wait for you to get critically ill before they will operate. This was told to my stepdad by his consultant who waited twenty-two weeks for a gallstone operation which should have been routine, but because they left it so late he was admitted with liver infections three times rendering them unable to operate and was in unbelievable pain most of the time. The system in their area was so overloaded they had no choice but to push patients to the limit. It's a world gone mad with that kind of thing.

When you get the care it's normally very good (for physical conditions anyway), it's just getting to that care in the first place that is so problematic for many.

It is law in the Netherlands for everyone to have health insurance and is subsidised/offset depending on your financial circumstances. It is tiered and what 'extras' you are entitled to depends on what you pay for. That includes things like dieticians, dental, some mental health issues etc. Anything to do with pregnancy is covered automatically and children are free as they come under their parents' policy. I dislike the nature of insurance on principle as you have to always check to see what is covered but it seems to work well for the most part. If anyone ever needed treatment they would always receive it - but run the risk of a rather large bill coming through the door for anything outside the norm. As someone who has multiple mental and physical health problems we have an all inclusive policy. To have an all singing all dancing policy for a family is cheaper than what we paid in NI in the UK and that doesn't include the cost of dental work either which would have made the UK even more expensive. Prescriptions you have to pay a proportion towards and certain drugs such as Lorazepam they won't cover at all unless it's under certain circumstances. I know the doctors get very frustrated with the system sometimes.

I can't complain about the care I have received here which I've found far better than in the UK. But there is no showing up at A&E with a problem as they only seem to see you if you have a limb hanging off or similar, otherwise it's paracetamol and wait the illness out! You do get seen faster as well and if you do need something you just go and get it. I don't miss the 12 week waiting lists but I'm not sure I would advocate an insurance type system in the UK. The problems run much deeper than that.

They saved my daughters life, simple as that. At a time when the media like to slate the nhs (and I'm sure we've all had the odd grumble), the treatment my family received was simply outstanding, so much so we're trying to repay them in our own way
www.justgiving.com/wexhamwalk

What if you go to an oncologist but the lump you're worried about is actually a dermatology problem? The GP is a gatekeeper, yes, but also a generalist who should be particularly skilled at diagnosis. For many common things, the GP can do the whole treatment. For less obvious diagnoses, the GP should be able to narrow down what it might be and what it probably isn't.

^^

This. The lump I found in my breast was a boil, it had not 'surfaced' but when it did I was ready and I'd been reassured by the GP that it was a boil.

Had I been able to go straight to an oncologist what a wast of her/his time is a boil?

The time I woke up in agony and vomiting I thought it was my gallbladder, it wasn't, it was an ovarian cyst, but even A and E didn't know what it was without the ultrasound and X-ray so how would I have known to call a gynae.

If you want to self refer you can, but you have to pay.

sashh - I was at a gastroenterologist once who was investigating my pain -

"there are three things it could be: gall stones, duodenal ulcer or (something I can't remember)"

"I think it's an ulcer " says I firmly

"well I think it gallstones and I'm the doctor so we'll check that first"

Readers it was gallstones.

And I consider myself to be a very well informed lay person!

Luckily everything it could have been were gastro - otherwise I might have been trolling around random consultants trying to get diagnosed.

Probably because it is perceived as being "free" and "sheeple" over the past couple of decades have been brainwashed into thinking they must take every single ailment to a doctor?
Whilst I think the original idea was laudable, I believe there should be reforms and think that consideration of an insurance-based service, along European models, could be the way forward.

It's free at the point of delivery. No worries like can I afford to call am ambulance, afford to have necessary surgery or treatment.

There are faults but it is changing. Look at devolved powers to Manchester and integrating health and social care in leicester.

We've got an ageing population and people with increasingly higher expectations. But maybe people need to take some responsibility for their own health too, like eating better and exercising, and using services appropriately (not turning up at a&e simply because their gp is shut or calling an ambulance when it's not an actual emergency.