Why do people think the NHS is so special?

[SnowBells]

There are always people around who proclaim the NHS is some sort of holy grail. It can't be touched, and don't even think about reforming it. The government may be offering free healthcare through the NHS, but nothing is really free, is it?!

My gripe with the NHS is that just like most institutions funded by the government, it becomes a big bureaucratic mess, where people are more concerned about ticking boxes than the actual patients. Most other developed countries have some sort of free healthcare that can actually be more effective than the NHS. I have lived in countries where, for example, health care insurances are mandatory, so that everyone has one (and a lot of times, employers contribute the bulk or the government subsidises it). Hospitals may be subsidised by the government, but GPs run their practice like a business, and rely on clients to earn their living (this means, they actually have to provide a bit of "client service" that's almost elusive here in Britain). You can make appointments with specialists directly - no need to waste time at the GP's practice when really, you needed to see, say, a gynaecologist.

Why is it that some hail is as the holy grail?

Layer after layer of nasty unpleasant bureaucrats? I've not experienced this at all. I think you may be projecting your experience of one area onto the whole NHS.

Marshy

I don't know what you are talking about - the problems I see with the NHS is not necessarily hospitals. But the whole GP referral system... which seriously is tick box mentality.

I went to a GP in the UK for TWO different issues. The consultation is 15 minutes long. After 5 minutes of discussing one issue, I mentioned the other issue (which would not take that long to discuss).

The GP (who did not have great manners and was terribly moody) insisted that the process dictates I have to make yet another appointment and waste another day. She would NOT discuss it with me. AT ALL. Even though we had 10 minutes left.

Compare that to the treatment I got in Europe where I stayed at the practice until they diagnosed me for xxx things. No flat rule. These examinations may be completed by the nurses rather than the GP, who checks what the nurses have done in-between his other appointments. Now, THAT is customer service.

Oh - and I didn't pay a thing. The health care insurance did. Every citizen had to have insurance - by law.

Imagine living in fear of even a small illness or accident, because you can't afford insurance and any kind of treatment at all costs more money than you can afford. Or you have insurance but you can't be certain that it will cover the medical assistance you or your children need.

As for referrals - I'm sure I would have made plenty of unnecessary self-referrals to specialists by now if there were no GP system. They are in a better position to know whether a referral is necessary and who you should be referred to. If we all self-referred to specialists the system would be clogged up with people who had misdiagnosed their own symptoms.

Has anyone here actually had experience of other healthcare systems in developed countries themselves?!?

it seems to me that many just say the NHS is great, but without knowing how much better other systems can be.

The only person between me and the consultant surgeon, plus her wonderful team, that I needed to see was my gp. Since I have had treatment I now have direct access to the team. All on the nhs.

Yes, one EU country,and the US.

I am in my early 20s, undergoing investigation for gastro/pain problems that they haven't quite pinned down yet. My DP has to see 2 specialists, a gastro doc and a heart doc, as he has Crohn's and a heart condition.

Sure, it would be lovely if we could just pop in to the specialist whenever we felt a bit wobbly about something, but it's really a waste of our time and theirs. DP's condition is managed very well and he has regular appointments every 6 months at our hospital. He's a "good" Crohn's patient, probably one of the healthier people they see.

He had his surgery at 18 privately when he was on his mum's insurance, and for that he was happy (the food is way better apparently). If you want BUPA/other private treatment here for a big surgery like that, it's totally possible. But he is very grateful that now we live away from his parents the NHS specialists and our GP and even our local pharmacy are great at monitoring him. The pharmacy even saved us about £600 on medication by nagging us to get pre-payment certificates (£100 each for a whole YEAR of medication; usually pay at least £25-30 a month). I would consider private UK treatment if there was another big procedure needed in the future, but only for the privacy and comfort, not because me or DP wouldn't trust the NHS.

I know German people whose parents are doctors in that system. It sounds doable, but it would be jarring for me, regardless of how much is apparently covered by insurance. Arranging our own insurance with chronic conditions would scare me a lot. I would like to find a specialist one day to figure out a proper diagnosis, it does suck to spend so long switching medications, but I know that as long as I stick with the NHS and my GP they will figure out what I need in time. I'm fine with that.

NotYouNaanBread You know that there is private healthcare here too, you know?

Yes, and that's what I mostly use now. I use my company's GP. She is amazing. Much more effective than most NHS GPs I had. She has to provide good customer care, too, because she is private.

We have private medical insurance, too - but most private insurances are quite limited here.

I have some limited experience of the French healthcare system. DH got a very bad cut on his hand and we went to the local A & E. We were told that that we would have a long wait because the doctor (there was only one on duty) had gone out to an emergency.

A French friend 's retired father had to spend five nights in hospital. The medical treatment he received was free but he was charged over a thousand euros for the 'hotel' part of his bill.

When I have had occasion to use a French GP I have to pay the full amount for the consultation upfront and reclaim it from our government if I can be bothered.

I've just spent 2 weeks in hospital. I've had various treatments, procedures and medicines given to me for free. Also all the food, including extra snacks to build me up, a comfortable bed and brilliant doctors, dieticians, nurses. All free.
Having joined a support group for my newly discovered condition, I realise how lucky we are to have the NHS. Others in the group, in other parts of the world have to find out about things and organise the treatments etc themselves, finding the right kind of specialists etc. And they have to find the money. For drugs to keep them alive.
I feel very fortunate. Yes, there were problems but all down to the staff being overstretched but I was, on the whole, given the best possible care.
Got home and my gp phoned to check I was ok, I knew what I was doing with medications, set up repeat prescriptions and gave me extra phone numbers for specialised nurses and clinics.
I just hope I don't need the NHS so much in the future. I would fight very hard if it were looking like we were going to lose it. It is very special. We are very lucky.

The problem is how long can we keep it free constantly and fund everything? My Doctors has had a 40 percent increase in people wanting appointments. Crazy and now near impossible to see anyone.

It's not as black and White as uk or use systems there is much in between

It's free at the point if need for everyone - for those who are, or believe themselves to be, ill

Is that really true of all other health systems? Other health systems might be more efficient as they have an incentive to be so, namely insurance companies. Yes the NHS is bureaucratic and needs sorting but in the meantime I will continue to support it, will attempt to use it responsibly and be thankful that we have such a healthcare system

But most people are aware that you have to book a double appointment if you are going about more than 1 problem?

I have never experienced health care in a different country, nor private in the UK but a family member just had a routine operation with BUPA go horribly wrong and was initially fobbed off with 'we dont have infections in our hospitals' and later 'it will get better' then BUPA stopped paying and he has to go to NHS. I know that this is only one anecdote but its not even the botched operation that was the problem, it was the sheer arrogance of denying there was infection which has left him with a permanent limp due to muscle wastage when he couldnt do the physio straight after the op. They left the infection to rot his leg for weeks before doing anything about it.

BUPA also provide terrible care for the elderly at a massive premium and they are shit employers. If bupa are anything to go by i would dread an insurance based system.

OP, I agree with you about some of the inefficiencies and sometimes baffling protocol of the GP system. Having experienced the medical systems in France, Australia, the United States, and Hong Kongas well as the UKI see much room for improvement.

Of course we are all incredibly fortunate to have this serviceno one is saying we aren'tbut the system is not beyond criticism and must be changed if it is to survive.

I could go on. I will leave you with the knowledge that I am somewhat envious of your allotted 15 minutes; our GP offers only 10 minutes, which is barely enough time to change in and out of clothing when necessary. Absurd that there's no correlation between the complaint stated during booking and the time allotted for consultation.

Because it's saved my life and that of two of my children.
Because without it I'd not be able to afford to hear. I couldn't pay privately for the extremely strong hearing aids I need.

She has to provide good customer care because she is private

I would rather be confident that my hcp was providing good patient care because s/he was a dedicated and committed professional rather than because I was paying for it. This is my experience of the vast majority of nhs hcps

yy to finding all this "customer service" and "customer" language in general to be antithetical to healthcare. one of my housemates is an assistant surgical nurse and i have other friends in nursing, i'd rather someone be upfront and honest than kiss my bum the whole time catering to my whims because of some "customer is always right" attitude. I imagine they have way more urgent stuff to do. And as beavington says, private places like BUPA put all emergency care on the NHS because obviously complications cost them more money.

I'm from Germany and was a bit shocked by the English system.

What worries me most is that sick -genuinely sick people- don't go to the doctor or a&e because they are worried of wasting their time .

In Germany you can jsut walk into a doctor's surgery and be seen on the day. The difference seems to be that GP in the UK get paid by how many people they have on their books, German doctors get paid by the patient's insurance for every service performed. I have had to wait weeks just to see my GP because they are hopelessly oversubscribed.

The Herman HC system has also saved my life. I was airlifted to hospital and brought back from death' door and it didn't cost me anything at the time.

I'm not saying the German system is perfect, but it's far better than the English system whilst being free at the point of delivery.

I think it's wonderful that there is no worry for anyone about having to have the money to seek treatment. My own experience has been almost exclusively positive.

However, someone close to me has complex issues resulting from a medical incompetency incident. Accidents happen, we accept that. It's what has happened since that is just so awful. She is under the care of a neurologist, neurosurgeon, psychiatrist, psychologist, physio, OT and probably others. Invariably, we go for appointments and the necessary notes are missing, pre tests haven't been ordered, appointments arranged to interpret MRI scans BEFORE the MRI has taken place... If I wasn't going with her to every appointment I really would not believe that this chaos could exist. It's not even one off - in the past year I don't think there has been any interaction that has gone as planned. At the last appointment with the neurologist, he wrote a note on a scrap bit of paper as he wanted the GP to change the meds - he said to do it through the proper channels would take 3 weeks or get lost. This is for someone who had to give up work (and wrestle with the benefits system for the first time), suffers from PTSD following her time in ITU (and she was not warned this is a not uncommon side effect) so tends to be very anxious anyway.

I think the politicians have successfully turned the NHS into a political pawn. It is being stretched and challenged but in many ways can't be criticised as that's construed as reasons to get rid of it, rather than improve it.

TwinkleThis Thank you!!!!

You put it much more eloquently.

Of course, it is nice to have free health care, but that does not mean this should be the be-all and end-all... because there is ALWAYS room for improvement.

You can only improve when you ADMIT to the problems. You need to know WHAT those problems are. But many people who are happy with the NHS as it is do not even want people to criticise it.

The typical comment of "Be glad you have it" follows instead.

People who talk like this have never lived in another country where they have no free healthcare and peoples' entire lives (and their children's) are dominated by a fear of getting ill because they can't afford to pay for medical care. Or where, because hospitals really are run like businesses, unnecessary treatments are prescribed to people who know no better in order to make more money. Or where an ambulance won't come out until the crew have verified with your bank that you can pay.

Yes, the NHS is not perfect, but it is a million billion times better than in many places.

Of course we should be glad we have it!

I agree that doesn't preclude the need for being open to criticism, aware of shortcomings and to strive for improvement. Grappling with this forms a large part of my daily working life in the nhs.

Your opening point op was that the nhs is regarded as a 'holy grail'. If by that you mean that for some it represents perfection, then clearly that is not the case and I don't think any of the 'pro' views on this thread have suggested that.

YABU on the whole. I do have experience of European healthcare and the main difference is that the NHS is free at the point of delivery. In all other systems that I am aware of, the patient has to pay upfront and claim it back. You are also not insured without limit (unlike the UK).

I do agree that some changes need to be made, eg my DD was very ill last year. I was sent a random breast exam appointment. I forgot to cancel as DD was so ill. I was then sent another random appointment. I also forgot to change that as DD was still very ill. I would much rather have made my own very convenient appointment that I would have attended. Instead, my non-attendances have added to the cost of unused appointments, unfortunately.

Having said all that, as I said above, DD was very ill last year and has still not recovered. I cannot fault the care she has received, all completely free. If we lived somewhere else, we could not possibly have afforded all the treatments she has had, nor the actual medication.

someonestolemynick

I have had the same experience as you. I don't get the "NHS saved my life comments."

Other health systems saved my life, too. They don't leave you to die, just because they're not the NHS. I didn't pay either.

Because even if you are poor, a minority and seriously ill you get the same treatment as a rich white guy.

Private healthcare is great : if you can afford it. The NHS is the bedrock of the UK.