to think they should charge the Syria girls

[adsy]

If they are indeed with terrorists in Syria then when a small chink of sense comes back to them and they want to come home, I hope they will be charged.

are people really so naive as to think that these girls are just in turkey on some kind of mercy mission? I'm sure that their families want to believe that, no-one wants to think that their child/sibling is part of a terrorist organisation. but really....?

They are known to have visited multiple pro isis websites, they are known to have contact with girls who have been out there for some time, who are known for recruiting jihadi brides. they haven't been in touch with their families since leaving the UK, in fact they lied to their families in order to do so - one on her sister's passport.

Get real..

I suspect that by the end of the week this story will have died down, the girls will have disappeared into obscurity and we may see them on pro isis proppaganda at some point in the future, who knows. But people here will stop caring until the next batch of would-be jihadi's go out to Syria, and then the discussion will start again about how vulnerable/innocent... etc etc...

WannaBe - would you like to pet one of my unicorns - it might help with your anger

I mentioned Al Shabab soley to illustrate that there are threats to UK, in addition to those from IS. Not becuase I thought they were the same group.

And I thought the existence of other threats was pertinent, because - unless there is a massive expansion to the security services and police - I don't see how we can keep sufficient tabs on individuals to prevent attacks here. Let alone how we would do it if there were a decision that returing teenagers should not be treated like other returnees.

(assuming they have reached IS controlled Syria)

(Boko Haram, bye as a pp mentioned them, is also a proscribed organisation. Those returning from areas where they have training camps can also expect to be charged on return to UK).

Well, ghostly, I will own up to introducing the phrase their friends' intentions. But, although this thread suggests charging the girls, that doesn't mean everybody who dislikes where they've gone wants to invent imaginary crimes or to lynch them. It has been noted before that jihadi-land is out there. Seems like an apt location for jihadis.

Nobody likes where they have gone. Not one person has said: oh, its fine, leave them be, no problem.
Basically what you have is one side screaming about arresting children, charging children, letting them rot in Syria by refusing entry to the uK, calling them evil etc etc. And another side who are able to understand that teens can do monumentally stupid things but we as adults behave better and first try to undertstand why they did it and help them find a way back.
Or in shorthand, paranoid facists and normal people.

I wannabe so naive that I wanna think that I'm really smart and other people are credible dolts.

no-one has yet given me a link to this evidence that they have joined IS or approved of them in any way .... it may well be that they have, but I would prefer to know some facts before I condemn anyone.

It's a funny old place, mumsnet.

In my opinion, "normal people" don't seek to make excuses for anyone who willingly sets off to become involved in or support a genocide.

Indeed "paranoid fascists" would seem to be a fitting term for members or supporters of an organisation who will rape, torture, murder or enslave anyone - men, women, children, babies, Yazidi, Christians, Shia and Sunni - who disagrees with or somehow offends their own ideology.

Anyway, if this opinion makes me a "frother" or "worse than ISIS" or a "paranoid fascist" ... frankly, I couldn't give a sh*t.

BTW, it's not difficult to find evidence that one of the girls was in contact with Aqsa Mahmoud (the Scottish "jihadi bride") and asked for Aqsa to pm her and that another was known to follow 70 "extremists" on twitter. Google is your friend. And the sister of one had already been to their mosque, expressing her concerns.

Moon

I make no excuses for them ! My initial reaction was 'screw them' , a bit anti Isis at the moment unsurprisingly

Then I realised that two of them were children
Then I saw their poor families

They are British children and like it or not we need to try and locate them.

The reason for showing compassion to these kids who have run off the Syria is that the UK is a great country. We do not follow an eye for an eye/ qasas approach to punishment. We are morally above those who burn people in cages or behead innocent hostages. Our justice system is about keeping the public safe and rehabilation.

Maybe some countries would view these girls as traitors and let them die in a really horrible way. Just because someone might deserve to die doesn't mean that you give up on them or allow them to die.

adsy

Thank god for you! I feel like the competitive compassion on mumsnet is so transparent. No, I like the murderers best! No, I do! No, I do!"

Ridiculous.

The selective compassion on this thread is the bigotry of low expectations. Muslim girls are clearly seen as stupid and morally weak and so can't resist the siren call of murderers and fanatics. News flash: most of them do. Most teenagers do full stop. I've got a better idea - boys raised in the UK are being indoctrinated with dangerous hateful patriarchy. 100% fact. So rape should be decriminalized for any man under 16 year old. 15 year olds should be allowed to rape people. 15 year old boys can't help themselves. They are under the influence of hormones. They may come from bad homes. Their brains aren't fully formed. They make bad decisions. They've been conditioned to believe that women are lesser than them.

And we need to be supportive of them and their right to rape and abuse women as they see fit. We need to believe them regardless of the facts. And once they've raped and abused these women, we should help them and be compassionate and kind to them. We shouldn't hold it against them or be suspicious of them. Because, you know, their brains are still growing.

exactly. ^^

ReallyTired, well said, exactly my feelings too.

BTW, it's not difficult to find evidence that one of the girls was in contact with Aqsa Mahmoud (the Scottish "jihadi bride") and asked for Aqsa to pm her One message does not a terrorist make.

and that another was known to follow 70 "extremists" on twitter. Google is your friend. And the sister of one had already been to their mosque, expressing her concerns Google may well be my friend, but considering that all the articles are full of "believed to be" "reportedly said" "have assumed that" "possibly" "may well have" "we think that" and none have any actual facts I will reserve judgement on punishment for these children until I know whether they have broken any law.

Travelling to join IS does however make you a terrorist under British law (in the sense that you have committed a crime under the Terrorism Act).

There is an international hunt for these girls, no sign of them anywhere, and no indication of another purpose for travel. Plus (unconfirmed) reports they have already reached IS controlled territory.

One reason UK is a great country because everyone is treated equally under the law.

Yes it does farahilda, but until Britian has proof that is what they have done, then those people baying for their blood, likening them to murderers and putting their 'crime' in the same context as the actual crime of rape, then surely as decent people we can find it in our hearts and minds not yet to condemn them.

If they've crossed into Syria, then there's plenty to charge them with.

Obviously it will be a Jury who decides on guilt, and the deradicalisation programmes will begin in parallel. Just like already happens for returnees (of any race, colour, age, sex).

I am getting a little concerned that support for consistent application of the law, when there is a prima facie crime, is being conflated with "baying"

ha ve you even read this thread? it seems to have gone over your head.the debate is about capacity to commit crime if you are young and acting under influence of others. what should happen if and when it is known that these girls have set out to join Isis
one camp is arguing that these girls have been groomed a d are too immature to really understand what they are doing.as such they should not be punished.the other is arguing that they are well over the age of criminal culpability and should be punished or at least left to their chosen fate I'd that is what they have done

that last post was addressed to evedallas

Yes I've read the thread JudgeRinder. Threads meander, more than one point is relevant and more than one point is posted. You've been here long enough to know that, surely?

The OP is still as valid as it was when it was first posted. But until it is proved that their journey to Turkey (and possibly Siria) has criminal intent, until it is proved they have joined ISIS as fighters or brides, then I don't see the point in condemning them for their actions. I am not in the Security Services, I have seen no proof that they are terrorists/want to marry terrorists. I cannot mind read and have not experienced radicalisation. I DO know that they haven't raped anyone, so can quite easily have an opinion on the ridiculous post from Lime, and do.

limegold I never said that about competitive compassion

Muslim girls are clearly seen as stupid and morally weak and so can't resist the siren call of murderers and fanatics
all of the people saying they are too young to be responsible for their actions and that they have been brainwashed have said it is because of their age and that all teenagers are basically silly and easily led. I don't recall a single person saying this is a trait restricted to muslim teenage girls, feel free to highlight a post that does say that though.
Although I agree with the sentiment of the rest of your post

The idea that they can be perceived of no wrongdoing until such times as it has been proven is nothing more than denial.

Of course if they ever return to the UK they should be treated under the usual judicial process, however it doesn't need a judge and jury to be able to make a personal judgement on the appropriacy of contacting known terrorist recruiters on social media or joining terrorist websites. These facts are known without the need for judge and jury.

They knew what they were doing. They had been in contact with known terrorist recruiters on social media. They had to apply for visas to enter Turkey (I'd actually forgotten about that bit - the process changed last year about a week after I went there on holiday), so they will have had to have planned this for weeks at least before they left. Someone will have had to pay for air fares for them, how did they get their tickets? who paid? they had to get hold of their passports, and in one case one of them had to use her sister's passport. And all this while deceiving those around them as to their intentions.

I would say actually that if they were quite as vulnerable as some on here would seem to think, it would have been a lot harder to carry all this out without someone becoming concerned about their behavior. They're fifteen and sixteen, an age where they apparently would be more emotional, more easily led. the fact no-one suspected would imply that actually they were a lot more aware of what they were doing than the sympathisers would have us believe.

And for those saying that they will reserve judgement, what happens when it becomes apparent they are in Syria, married to IS fighters and are recruiting more of their friends to go over to Syria and join the good life? Will you still feel the need for compassion then?

Lime your post is possibly the single most stupid thing I have ever seen on MN - congratulations

you win a nice hat

Ah right lime sorry, the first bit of your message makes sense now. It is early in the morning!!

Whereas I think it's a very sensible , reasoned post lime vive la difference, eh? Fortunately we can have strong differences of opinion and be reasonably safe in the knowledge that our verbal antagonist won't come round and burn us and our children alive ( unless any mnetters are members of extreme terrorist groups)