To wonder why London gets such a bad press?

[Campaspe]

I've seen a few threads on MN about moving house and living in or moving away from London. The general gist of them seems to be that London is awful, unfriendly and overpriced, whilst living up north is mostly cheap, friendly and just, well, better.

I'm not sure that's actually always the case. Disclaimer: I don't live anywhere near London, or come from there (and I promise I'm not shagging Boris too!). I love to visit it however, and I don't think there's another city anywhere in the UK that can hold a candle to it in terms of cultural offerings, history, excitement or attractions, even though I love most of the big cities of the UK. I do accept that being a capital city means that it is expensive and has lots of the social problems that beset all major conurbations.

It seems to me that in the end, it boils down to personal preference, but I don't really like the fashionable anti-city, anti-London pose that so many people like, particularly when it comes to a debate about north versus south. (It's like that other knee-jerk, ignorant anti-American prejudice that such people often spout). I find it puzzling that people denigrate the amount of money spent in London when it raises much of the capital that goes into projects over the rest of the country. And when I've seen worse poverty in London than anywhere else in the UK - and it somehow seems worse when there are very affluent areas just a short mile away.

So, why aren't people proud to have as a capital such a vibrant, diverse city such as London?

London is very expensive, and to make the most of it while living there, you need a big salary, otherwise, you are undoubtly going to have a better standard of living in many other cities around the country and then visiting London for the free stuff.

That said, having lived there for a few years and then commuted back in for a few more, it's not as unfriendly as many make out, and many parts of the rest of the country can be just as unfriendly - or more so. Of course, in large parts of the Midlands upwards, you do find people will strike up conversations in bus queues and shops with strangers, so on the face of it, they are more welcoming and friendly. However, in London you are highly unlikely to find yourself living in an area where most people were born, went to school, who's whole family live there and as outwardly friendly they are, aren't all that interested in making new 'proper' friends. Several of my friends have been seduced by selling up in London to move out to small villages and towns and found being the 'outsider' hard to get used to. Most people in London have moved there, or at least moved within London, so are more open to making new friends once you've got past the 'akward striking up conversation' stage.

Photographs showing the 'sights' in London are always full of sunshine, cleanness, litter free and happy. Go there and it will be dull weather, dirt everywhere, narrow pavements, too much traffic when you try to cross the road even at traffic lights, litter strewn, and set faces.

I used to work around Oxford Street - Tottenham Court Road - Bedford Square. It was clean, airy and uncrowded. Now ....

I do appreciate by the way that I have been banging on about the SW rather than the North, by the way....

In answer to the question in the OP, I think the problem is in the assumption so often made that everyone in the UK should give a shit about London. Why should anyone be expected to be proud of london?

I love love LOVED in in my 20s when I lived there, but now in my 30s I just don't "get" it when I visit, it all seems to be about spending money. Friends who still live in London now (in their 30s) seem to mostly spend their time talking about or going to expensive or hard to book restaurants. its just seems all about commercial persuits when I visit now, not "simple pleasures", and I don't enjoy it any more

More spent per head in Scotland and NI though. And the NE is not far behind.

I am a Northerner and I love lots of Northern cities and the countryside, but I am settled here. I couldn't wait to move here (London) over 27 years ago and I still love it now. But I think I am lucky that we were able to get onto the property ladder - life here is very different for many people to the life we have.

It's not just the politicians who are hopelessly London-centric. The so-called national media is too.

Hope , yes, I live in N Ireland.

And I found it friendly when I lived there, but again people tend to spend money in order to socialise: expensive hobbies, eating out, bars, going to gigs, shows etc. You have to be "into stuff" in London LOL. Can't be bothered with all that now and I just don't get the fuss any more about stuff that seems to impress London friends

Photographs showing the 'sights' in London are always full of sunshine, cleanness, litter free and happy. Go there and it will be dull weather, dirt everywhere, narrow pavements, too much traffic when you try to cross the road even at traffic lights, litter strewn, and set faces.

I think you've just described every British city.

I have nothing against London itself. I lived in zone2 for most of my 20s. But I think the quality of life in the 60-90min commute radius of London is truly awful and I find it sad that so many people "move out" but won't even consider moving to another city further north where you can live well on an average salary without a hideous commute.

Hope , yes, I live in N Ireland

Oh, I have free train tickets as compensation that I thought you could use but yeah no train from N Ireland to London

Hope that's so lovely of you! But no, the train service is lacking from here

I love London but after 20 years here am just about to leave and move 200 miles away so that we can buy a nice house in a nice area without having to work ourselves into early graves to do so. We rent quite centrally atm, buying locally is out of the question, and we've tried the commuting in from the burbs thing and hated it. So it's a dash for the hills!

I plan to come back quite regularly though, there are SO many things I will miss.

I love living in London but I am really lucky to have a good job, got on the housing ladder in my 20s, live in a nice area, good schools etc. There are a lot of problems - the gap between rich and poor, the air pollution, lack of affordable housing, homelessness, living standards, corrupt politics, and so on. I think London is over invested in to the detriment of regions and other cities.

I've lived all over UK, urban and rural, north and south. I would love to live in another city - maybe Edinburgh or Cardiff but the job I have is specific to London.

If you were to ask everyone on the planet (who isn't totally cut off from the rest of the world) "What are the 5 most important cities in the world?" most of them would include London in that top 5, I am quite sure. Certainly above any other European capital.

I feel sorry for people who don't "get" it.

MrsDV, yes I would think that would be true. However having worked in education, I know that the average spend on, say, a Cornish child compared to a London child is less. Don't ask me for links because I don't have any off the top of my head! And this isn't fair because this is one of the most deprived area of the country with the lowest productivity - it's just that rural poverty doesn't make nearly as many headlines as urban poverty.

Sorry to keep banging on about this by the way - it's just something I feel strongly about.

There's also the cost of supporting the people who use London (eg for economic activity) but don't live there. A lot of infrastructure required.

It's interesting when you look at the balance of tax contribution and state expenditure by region. London, the South East and the East are the the only bits that are net contributors, and London is by far the highest. Which is fine - it's how it should be. But it comes with a services and infrastructure bill.

Mintyy do you know this or do you just think it should be true?

Besides, "important" doesn't equal "great to live in".

If you can't afford to live here, I would imagine it'd be pretty galling to see so much happening here and so much attention paid to London by the media. It's very inaccessible, not least in terms of cost.

Hester - the only links I can find to funding per student don't remove London weighting. I can't seem to find apples/apples figures.

I do agree, though, that the SW gets a very raw deal, and that rural poverty is in so many ways tougher, and much more hidden.