to not want my 3rd child to be referred to as my second, because the second died

[redandwhitetoadstool]

my dc3 keeps being called my 2nd

keep getting comments like when its your second xyz

comments like oh yeah the second doesn get more ill because they are exposed to more germs etc

I think its well ment and not ment to harm but painful

I honestly don't know if im being over sensitive about this

but our second child died shortly after being born, on the same day
so will always to us be our second
but of course we never actually had the chance to parent our second child

to other people, I get that it seemed a bit to them like that child never existed
but this is actually my mother that keeps doing this and it keeps really upsetting me

I'm so sorry OP. After such a loss it's horrible for your own DM to be causing you more pain.

I think she's stuck in an "I say the wrong thing, OP corrects me, I say a perfunctory apology / self-justification" rut. So behaviourally I think if she does it again you shouldn't correct her, you should insist on her correcting herself - thinking of the appropriate words and making them come out of her own mouth. Say (perhaps) "That's so hurtful DM. That's as if you're denying DD ever existed. What would you say if you didn't want to hurt me?"

'I'm curious to know why you go out of your way to hurt me. Is it to punish me or does it make you feel better? Because either way, denying your own grandchild existed is pretty low. I've asked you to stop. You don't. Makes me question our entire relationship, frankly.'

Practice saying that.

Yes, she's in the wrong. But you should try to remember that your attitude (which is totally fine) is a very recent one. UP until really very recently, stillborn babies weren't even registered or properly buried, or offically given names. And shortlived babies were not talked about, often never mentioned at all. It was usually something to be hushed up in families and you would have been thought of as crass and insensitive to mention it.
Thats all changed now, which is good. But a lot of older people find the change difficult, if you've grown up with one way of doing things ingrained in you, it can be hard to catch up with different ways, especially something so personal and sensitive. She could have experiences you don't know about, or her female relatives did etc.

I'm not excusing her behavior, she is firmly in the wrong, she has hurt you more than once even after you have told her. And maybe she's very young (although believe or or not, I'm personally thinking of the mid 70's, not the 50's or anything), so this doesn't apply. I'm just saying maybe think about it from another angle, and maybe approach the conversation differently. She clearer does care, in her own way.

So, so sorry for you. It's a horrible sort of pain. I know it's not the same but I have "an only child" .No one but me knows that she isn't as I miscarried my 1st.I don't think even DH thinks the same way I do.

seriously thanks for all the replies, i do feel guilty as i hate to upset anyone, but i can't let this go on
it's just killing me even more

out middle child wasn't stillborn

i think if this happens again i am going to have to take a massive long break from her, because i just can't handle it

you have helped a lot because you've egged me on to tackle it, which is painful and difficult
but needed doing

and the ideas like suggestions saying the youngest etc are very helpful to me

i will try and bear in mind some of these suggestions if, well when, I'm guessing, this happens next time
I'm going to try and not be so polite next time

thankyou all very much and i'm sorry for everyone elses losses. sorry i didn't say that earlier was just in a state tbh.
anyway thankyou for the help

No, your daughter wasn't stillborn.

She breathed. She lived and died. It's a different certificate, a different grief.

Dd1 was stillborn and I WISH she had breathed.

There is such a difference and you are right to call attention to it.

Sorry I've realised I said daughter ( projection much!) and you didn't specify.

Your dc2 was not stillborn and there is a difference.

Stillbirths have actually been registered since 1927 although the way parents are supported has changed massively more recently. But that isn't relevant and it doesn't stop the op feeling hurt.

Op yanbu. My eldest child was born and died less than an hour later. She was a real person, she has a birth and a death certificate and she will always always be my first child. She is always missed out of the grandchild count, never talked about and her birthdays pass without mention outside of our immediate family (ie dh, 4 subsequent dc and me) but almost 10 years on I have learned to live with it. It does hurt when there is no acknowledgement that I am a mother of 5 and it always will but it is less raw now. I won't ever convince them to include her in the family count but the law and the registers do and we do, that's what brings me some comfort.

(Would just like to say though that although a stillbirth and neonatal death is different in the detail, I can't differentiate between the losses. Everything you have expressed you feel op, I share.)

X post there not saying your daughter is irrelevant slithylove just the subject of registration.

to you and the op and others who walk the painful road of child loss.

YADNBU

I have a friend who lost her first baby (stillbirth). She's gone on to have two more and they are her second and third children. I've never lost a child but I have enough empathy that I know a lost child is never forgotten.

Some people are just fucking uncaring and lacking in empathy.

If it's people who don't know you then if it feels right to gently correct them, do so. You've had a major bereavement, it's not to you to protect others from feeling uncomfortable (and if they do it's their problem anyway)

Could you ask your mum to refer to dc3 as the youngest child rather than the second child?

our middle child does have a birth and death certificate, had a funeral
kinda weird the law recognises this child when other people can try to pretend this child did not exist

this has helped get it off my chest a bit though
do feel a bit less wound up

'i think if this happens again i am going to have to take a massive long break from her, because i just can't handle it'

That seems fair.

Just look at it this way: if you knew you were saying something that upset your children that could easily be remedied, wouldn't you make it a point to do that? Of course you would.

My mother is 73. Yes, stillbirth, neonatal death, death in childhood were handled differently during her earlier days, but things have changed now, she's glad for it and expects to move with the times the same way she has learned to use a mobile phone and computer.

oh i totally agree a stillbirth is just as difficult, if not more so
didn't mean to imply neonatal death is worse at all
its all horribly difficult
very difficult

I think you would be perfectly justified in saying to her that unless she is prepared to respect your feelings and your second child you do not want to see her. It is cruel, she is being cruel and is gaslighting you when you confront her. I would be tempted to get husband/partner to make that phone call to her, she has shown she won't do what you tell her already. I am sorry for your loss and you are 100% right to keep your childs place in your family and your mother is either in denial or is plain nasty.

There are many babies resting round my daughter who were born sleeping or died soon after birth. Obviously there was a funeral for them and they have headstones laying over them same as my child or any other person.

how do you mean gaslighting?

I think gas lighting is arguing back in such a way as to make you feel like you are unreasonable and generally in the wrong. You find it mentioned in the relationships board quite often.

Gaslighting means "altering" reality to suit the controlling wants of the gaslighter. I'm not sure that that is what the OP's mother is doing. Rather, I think she's being insensitive and intransigent. She's not modifying her behaviour in a way that respects and considers her own daughter's feelings.

Whatever her reasons, she's willfully ignoring the OP's child's existence. That's not being a loving mother.

Some 30 years ago, we went on an organised family excursion into the countryside. As is a usual conversation opener, I asked one of the fathers how many children he had. He said he had four, but only three were present, as one of their children had died. I was youngish and naive and didn't know what to say. But I hope he took from my silent reaction that I had taken that point on board, which I did. When parents count the number of their children, then that is the number of their family unit.

Nobody said she was stillborn. If thats referring to my post I mentioned both stillbirths and short-lived babies, in a general sense.
I was merely trying to get across that while most people here seem to be assuming malice, meaness and intentional hurtfulness from the mother (on little evidence but I guess thats aibu for you), there are other things to consider. Doesn't anyone ever give the benefit of the doubt here?

I prefer to look at most threads using Hanlons Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

thanks for the replies, I've thought about things you have said to me and spoken to couple of rl friends tonight about it

I'm actually thinking I think I might take a break from her for a while, because I need to be as ok as I can be for my family, my children, not having these comments that cause me actual pain and push me further into the black hole and take me days to recover from
I need to be careful what and who I expose myself to
say like today, I ve been in tears etc which is far from ideal at half term
and it's her that's cause all this extra upset with something so needless
and something ive repeatedly asked her not to do and explained hurts me
as if its not difficult enough already

YANBU . However, I feel differently. Dd3 ( dd2's twin) died at 24 hours of a heart defect. I'm much further down the line than you but would never say I have 5 children. I have 4, but will willingly talk about dd2's twin if anyone wants to know. That's me, you are obviously very different. My heart goes out to you. I'm sure your dm means well but it won't help at all. She has to do what you need. Wishing you all the best.

Words can be so important here.

I don't have 3 children. One died. Technically I've never had 3 children at the same time.

I am however the mother of three. Present tense. I have had three kids. Ds is not the eldest. Dd is not the eldest girl.

These distinctions are so important to me.

If asked, I say I had 3 but my eldest died, now I have ds and dd.

If my parents or in laws discuss their number of grandchildren, when they say 2, even though it's accurate, it hurts. I would far rather they took the opportunity to acknowledge dd1 by saying "had 3 one died" or just not saying the bloody number.

I just can't see that someone who lost a child/grandchild at the age of e.g. 10 would discount their existence so easily.

I have just read the whole thread redandwhite and I'm sorry you are going through this.

Is it possible that in her own perverse way (and possibly subconscious way) she is trying to "help you move on"?

I know thats not an excuse and she needs to change what she is doing.

Its just sometimes I find it easier to tackle problematic behavior (from my mum or whoever) if I can work out the root cause of it.

Yes, it could be that she's being simply thoughtless, but it could stem from something else.

Just wondering if you can or want to explore that.