"Oh I'm lucky that I don't need to work, financially"

[TerraNovice]

I'm going back to work next month and while chatting with other mums about it I've come across the above phrase a few times. Perhaps IBU but it sounds insufferably smug to be - so they married guys with money, so what? There's nothing wrong with saying you're a SAHM so why add the caveat that you've got a rich husband?

Ultimately, not intimately!!

Ultimately what matters is living a living as good and fulfilling a life oneself, and raising our children to do likewise. And there's no one size fits all on how to do that.

This as the second post would have avoided the whole thread! :)

Why thank you kitchentable

Oh man, how could I have missed this thread and Jilly.

Jilly is a long-established MNer with minority views, not a Sleb folks.

I really shouldn't read these threads. Or any work related threads ever. They always leave me feeling frustrated and miserable and fantasising about disappearing* and starting a new life somewhere with job opportunities and one of these amazing sounding employers that I read about who offer training, and professional development, and promotion opportunities. They leave me seething with resentment at my life, and with my parents for raising me to not put myself first.

Then that leaves me confused as to whether wanting to be happy makes me a terrible person. I've been raised to think it does, so it's hard to reconcile that in my head.

*I'm not actually going to disappear, that's just fantasy talk.

treacle

I think this is a peculiarly female thing... Sometimes we are made to feel guilty for just wanting to be happy.
I guess the best way to look at it is: what do we want for our own children? I think we'd all say we want them to be happy and to achieve their potential in life. So surely the same applies to ourselves?

It suddenly strikes me that this whole thread (wholeheartedly including Jilly's posts) swallows the worst of the male patrimony.

Women are supposed to put their kids first according to the underlying thesis here. The argument is most heated around about whether WOHM or SAHM is better for the kids. A woman was defined as a prostitute (again, by her relationship with a man). Or labeled foolish for being financially dependent on a man (again, defined by her relationship with HIM). SAHM/WOHM, one HAS to be better, and we need to know. So much buying into this identity of Mother first and foremost. Like fuck me, is this what feminism has achieved for us? We're still defined by this one role over all others, at the expense of any other? Is it so crucial we get it perfect (the ridiculous pressure parents but especially mothers are put under)? Why haven't we chucked that one back to the stone age already??

And otherwise thread is defined by female relationships to MEN. OP is irritation about brag for having a rich husband; what about a lucky SAHM woman with a rich wife; or a lucky SAHD with a rich husband; just as irritating or just boring?

Pah.

Yeap, pah indeed.

How about a more enlightened way of thinking, that both parents have a responsibility to raise their children to be fulfilled, happy, productive people, without subjugating their own right to fulfilment?

Possibly part of the issue is that this requires ongoing negotiation, compromise and re evaluation... Harder work than simply pigeonholing people in a black and white way.

'SAHM/WOHM:one HAS to be better and we need to know'

YY to this as well, ragged. Another aspect of the human condition: it seems we're primed to believe that things must be black and white, and that if one thing works well for us, then it must mean something different wouldnt work well.

Not so. It's entirely possible that for most of us, even if we'd led our lives differently, things would still work out fine.

In the context of WOHP/SAHP, no doubt there are some couples who genuinely find that they cannot be fulfilled as a family without one parent giving up work, or conversely without both parents working. But for many of us, it isn't As black and white. I have no doubt I'd have enjoyed being a SAHM, and I'm sure my children would have been fine too. They have been equally fine with us both working. Sure, their experience would have been different in some ways if I'd not worked, but that doesn't mean it would be better or worse - just different.

ragged, yes, good points. A woman's place is in the wrong was the old 1970s women's slogan and if women can just get over that and realise if they simply live a balanced life all is well so much the better. Never men in the wrong of course. That is what we need to fight against - the idea that women get things wrong and men are perfect because they sport a penis.

treacle, most people's lives, male or female are very hard at times. I don't think any of us has things easy. However it is certainly worth thinking about can make life better. I value things like a lot of sleep, drinking water, exercise, only good foods, silence, time to think as important to my feeling good and being a good parent as I do earning a lot of money (although gosh I adore that too - let women have all that). There are definitely career paths where women and men start on lower pay and work up and if we encourage our daughters to work inc all centres rather than qualify and work at McKinsey or as a surgeon actuary barrister solicitor then the daughter will likely be the worse for picking a career with no career path and no pay rises in it. Women have always known this. Even 100 years ago the women in my family sought careers where pay went up rather than started and remained low.

Jilly I take your points but what I'm talking about isn't actually specific to women in this case. When I left university I thought I was doing exactly what you're referring to, starting a career in a low position with the view to working up. The company was packed to the rafters with enthusiastic, smart young people, male and female who had been assured that it was all there if you wanted to work for it. But without training, professional development, chances to try new things, how do you progress? You don't. And other employers don't want to touch you because you've got nothing worthwhile on your cv. I'm a sahm and whilst I don't feel happy and fulfilled, I no longer feel suicidal, whch is how working in a crappy job made me feel. I look and see my friends from my old job still doing the same tedious job they were doing 15 years ago, still desperately hoping to be successful in their job hunting. Meanwhile I see the company recruit externally because no one internally has the necessary skills apparently. This is what frustrates me, it's soul destroying, desperately hoping for your big break, doing everything you can to make that happen, yet every door is still shut to you. How much better for my mental wellbeing to just crawl home myself and shut the door on them instead.

Sounds awful treacle... And I can see why if the alternative is a soul destroying job, then giving up work becomes the more attractive option by default, even if being at home isn't fulfilling either.
No easy answers. My philosophy has been to encourage my dcs to aim for interesting and fulfilling careers, but also to not put all their eggs in one basket as it were; ie to remain flexible and open minded if things change or don't turn out as expected.
I hope you find a way forward to feeling better about your life.

Lines I'm ok really. Honest. Everyone has their bad days. I try to concentrate on what's good. For me that's shutting the door on my previous life. When I regain my confidence I'll try again.

treaclesoda there are good employers out there. I have just landed a wonderful full time job. My employer took a bit of a chance because I haven't had a straightforward career path, but they still took me on.

From the beginning it has been made clear that it is a big organisation and I should look around and in a year or two may want to try another department & other opportunities.

Actually, I am just loving my bright shiny new job and lovely friendly colleagues, but there is no doubt I could progress if I chose to - and I am nearer 50 than 40. Never give up! You have a lot of years left in you after the exhaustion of the teeny years.

I don't my point has been got.
If you pick something like law or medicine you train on your £40k pay, you qualify at £60k, after 4 years you might be up to £80k to £100k. If you ever make equity partner you could be on £1m to £2m for law. For medicine you rise to becoming a GP owning your own practice or a surgeon on increasing NHS pay rates or even in teaching teacher salary rising to head of leading school on £100k+ - there is progression whereas some jobs yes you might start on the tills in Tesco but you don't start there to get on the board in most cases.

So making sure our daughters know the difference between going into PR or trying to act (i.e. wait tables for life) or whatever - low pay and only route of poverty probably marrying someone rich v slogging it out to pass those patent attorney exams etc.

But most people don't work in law or medicine. It's just not possible for every intelligent young woman to go into law or medicine. And the salaries you refer to are presumably London salaries? Not everyone can realistically live in London either.

I've also just checked the NHS payscale and a junior doctor in my area would be training on, from what I can see, a salary of around £25k. The very top consultants might he on £100k, although I realise that they will probably be doing private work on top of that.

Jilly That is a ridiculously over simplified example. I suspect very, very few young women go to their mothers and say "I was going to sit for patent law/read medicine/intern in the city but i think that the better prospects are on tills at Tescos". People don't "pick" waiting tables over a partnership in a GPs practice. What if all your child wants to do is act? Say no, it's far more important that your out-earn your as yet imaginary future husband so go down the accountancy route???

I've just checked other salaries where I live. Newly qualified solicitor or accountant, about £25k as well. And some of the salary surveys I've read have put the legal one as low as £18k.

The salaries of the sky high earners in London don't reflect reality for the rest of the country, even for professional jobs.

Start salary for medical docs = 22k, not 40k.
With 5 yrs of Uni debt behind you, to boot.

ragged I'm glad you posted that link. I found my figures on a different site and I saw that £22k figure and thought ' I must have misunderstood, it couldn't be as low as that' (the site wasn't laid out anywhere near as clearly as that one). So I stand corrected, its even less than I thought it was.

Jilly.

I suppose if you place money as more important than anything else then your simplified version of raising kids is fine.

However, some people don't live to make huge wads of money and prefer to work in a career that gives them lots of satisfaction and makes them happy and stress free.
I have seen so many men and women work themselves into the ground producing pounds of flesh for those well paid jobs, to drop dead months after retiring.

Come on - are people saying they and their children are so mediocre they would not even aim high? great - leaves more space for those of us who happen to be ambitious. Stay on low or no salaries then.

I said very clearly above I cherish good mental and physical health which comes from eating well, silence, space, good food etc but if you can combine that with a lot of money then that's particularly nice.

I said the salaries above are for lawyers - the career I and my daughters are in and yes that is the trainee solicitor salary. Obviously if you want low income you can pick other routes and other cities - it's all about choice.
The rest of my family are doctors (father /brothers NHS consultants with private work too so obviously over £100k)
There is massive satisfaction in saving lives as a female surgeon or advising industries on legal issues - huge huge satisfaction. We do God's work, earn a lot and love it. I highly recommend it.

However the more women and men who seek low paid jobs the less competition for the rest of it so plod plod on particularly ilf it's making you happy. Encourage your daughters into low income work and there will be less competition for my children - hand me that benefit, tell your daughter high paid work is a source of a very unpleasant life and the only good moral choice is washing the feet of the poor in your local care home. Tell your daughters most people cannot earn much and she should know her place by aiming no higher than her local beauty salon.

5-7 yrs is a torturously long time to be in education/debt/training if you don't absolutely love the course & the profession. Assuming you're in the elite of people who qualify to get a Uni place.

It's great there are so many ways to have a satisfying life, we don't all have to design our ambitious around money or prestige or one narrow path.

I imagine that your husband broke your heart when he left, Jilly. And still you make all your posts about money & prestige.