To ask a friend to stop speaking her own language?

[jujujbel]

I have a very dear friend who is from another country but has lived in the UK for 20 years. Her DC are bilingual. Often, when we are together, she will break off the conversation to speak to her DC in her own language. This makes me uncomfortable and I find it rude but I have never mentioned it. However, a few days ago my DD came home from spending the day with my friends DD (they spend a lot of time together). She talked about how she hated it when they talked in a different language in front of her as it made her feel excluded. I explained that i had felt the same way and that it was actually considered bad manners to do this. I told my DD that if she felt uncomfortable she should say to her friend in as nice a way as possible and that I would do similar with the mum. The very next day, my DD did do this when the situation arose again and explained how it made her feel. She came home quite upset as she had argued with her friend about it.

We were all meeting up later anyway. When we got together my friend immediately said to me 'have you hear detox?' She then went to say, I'll speak to your dd to explain that I'm not talking about her it's just how we speak. I then said that I agreed with my DD and it made us both uncomfortable. My friend was shocked that I found her rude. I explained that it was only in the context where we are all having a conversation in English and they then break away to speak in a different language. Although I know they are not saying anything bad about us it is a horrible feeling and I don't understand why they feel the new to do it. I compared it to whispering. I have been very clear that it is only in the context of a group conversation being started in a shared language and then being continued in a language that not all of the group can understand.

My friend has now told me she will not speak her own language in front of my DD but that she will distance herself from us. She feels I am the inconsiderate one and that I am discriminating against her.

I am so hurt and confused. I guess I am just looking for a bit of MN perspective.

Sorry for the essay.

Thank

I have to agree with some statements made. When in a group I speak in the local language but often and not intending I say something in English it might be something like 'get your coat on' or it could be 'Stop now!!'. Often it is totally unintentional . When the dd's have friends over I try to make the effort to only speak local and when I find myself slipping I translate or often the dd's do it and make a joke about it.
We don't do exclusive OPOL and so far DD8y is bilingual to a good standard ( writing/ spelling is terrible in minor language) DD6y is not as advanced but we are getting there....

I agree with Galen. Speaking my language to my son is so natural to me that it would be like calling him a different name to speak English to him.

Yabu.

juju you know whatever your dd said to her friend may have really, really upset her and given her all kinds of self doubts and doubts about her mother personally and her mother tongue - and her identity, don't you? Or did you just not think about that side of it?

It makes me cringe when parents speak a language that is not their mother-tongue to their DC. So artificial.

I'm enjoying the ridiculous comments of learning a few phrases to join in! Languages are vast, I'm currently doing spanish in duolingo, I've done a lot of the lessons (800xp at 10 xp or so a lesson with repeats to refresh) and unless they are talking about some yellow skirts or eating strawberries for dinner I would be very lost! What phrases do everyone suggest they learn?

theres a group of women at the school that ds attends who are from poland. when speaking directly to their dcs or the other dcs with a polish parent, they speak polish. if their dcs are playing with my ds in the yard for example then they will speak in english, things like be careful you dont want to fall and tear your trousers. my ds has even picked up.some polish. the only time I feel uncomfortable with them speaking in their own language is if they are clearly speaking about me..they were gossiping about how im expecting again the other day! were horrified when they realised they had been caught out (and guiltily translated what they had said and were very apologetic )

YABU. If it happens in a professional setting or in a more formal kind of social gathering it's very rude. But in a domestic setting between parents and children it's totally unreasonable to expect them not to do this.

It's actually very rude as well, for you to infer that they are talking about your daughter or being unpleasant and nasty when they speak their own language, or that it's reasonable for you and your daughter to suspect that they do. If you are that good friends surely you would know her well enough to know she wouldn't do that? And if you don't do you understand why she might be upset you think that badly of her?

So it seems now its about 2 things, not just the 1

1: Please remember not to speak your mother tongue in my presence.

1. Should you ever slip up and do so, then please remember to report to me exactly what you have just said.

FGS. Anyone with that attitude, the bilingual family would be well shot of them. You as the bilingual parent are the one to do all the remembering. They of course in superior 1st language fashion, can't simply ask you what you said.

Your home is your haven - not theirs. Id be happy to close the door on all that.

I have several bilingual friends some if whom are bringing their children up to be bilingual.

It is a huge effort to cement a second language and I respect their choices to do so, most will speak to their kids in a group setting in a language other than english. Sometimes I can understand a bit (French/ German) other times I don't.

But it doesn't bother me because I trust them not to be talking about me!

Most of them would speak in English amongst adults although there are one or two is English is weaker who lapse into their common other language when together, again I don't tend to feel threatened by it just happy that someone who struggles a bit socially is getting to have a decent conversation...

Haven't RTFT but I am in your friend's position.

I would feel like I was acting if I talked to my dc (or dh for that matter) in the language of the country I am living in. If what we were saying to each other was part of the conversation then of course I would speak the language, but if I was interrupting in the middle to say something like 'Can you pass me some water please?' or 'Ds stop fiddling around with that' then it would be completely bizarre to do it in anything other than English.

I also suspect that they would think I was talking to someone else.

I have different languages I talk to to different people. I can be at the dinner table with dh and my sister, and I will say something to dh in English, then turn to my sister and talk to her in my mt, then to someone else in the language of the country we live in. Even though everyone around the table speaks all three languages.

Fortunately my friends are a little more understanding than the OP, and most understand a little English anyway, so don't get offended. I would think it was very selfish of someone if they demanded that I talk in a completely unnatural way with my own family, and would definitely be inclined to see less of them. I don't want to be acting around my friends.

Reading your last comment, I would imagine that the conversation would go something like

(in English) Shall we meet up for a playdate on Thursday?

(in mt) Oh, but don't you have to work for that homework you have to hand in on Friday?

No, it's OK, I can get it done on Wednesday.

(in english) Sure, let's meet on Thursday.

Not sure how that is excluding your dd, as the bits in mt are completely irrelevant to her.

YABU,

I don't know old her DCs are but with one parent one language its important to be consistent.

Fair play to the OP who I think has shown some openness to admit she's being a bit U. I think what a lot of monolingual people are missing are the visceral emotional attachment people have to their mother tongues, especially when you're a minority living in a foreign country. This is presumably the language that connects her back to her own mother, the language whose cadences her daughter learned in the womb. That's a powerful tie you're asking her to disregard for your convenience.

I was completely unfussed about living in my second language until I had DS. The second he was born, mothering him in my own language became a kind of biological imperative.

YANBU. I'm not British, English is not my first language and I would never do that to a friend and especially not to a child. I can see how it makes you feel excluded. It's very rude.

The only issue is when we are having a group discussion (usually about what we are planning to do) and they then carry on the conversation in a different language. So a group conversation about something that impacts us all is then carried on to the exclusion of some of those involved.this is the same for my Dd when she is with them in that she will discuss plans with her friend who will then turn to her mum and carry on the conversation in a language my DD does not understand.

Just to respond to this bit. If you are involved in making plans, then at some point your friend will have to switch back to English, yes? So you're not really in the dark about something that concerns you (or at least not for long). Rather, I assume that your friend and her child are discussing some aspect of the plans. If it affects you, they will presumably relay that piece of information to you in English. That is just the norm of interacting with people who speak more than one language. Yes, conversations may take a bit longer. But is that really so terrible?

I wonder if you are really taking in what so many people on this thread have been saying. When you establish a relationship with someone in one language, it can be very difficult to switch to another language. This is especially true in a parent/child relationship. What's more, if the parents are serious about raising truly bilingual children they know how difficult it can be when confronted with a majority culture that isn't particularly supportive of bilingualism. When some on this thread suggest that it isn't a big deal for your friend to speak English with her children, they may not understand that it can be a very big deal indeed. As a PP eloquently described it, being made to feel embarrassed or ashamed of their second language can have a tremendously detrimental effect on children and can even cause them to reject the minority language. I'm sure you wouldn't want to contribute to that sort of outcome, jujujbel.

^^meant to add, it's something you take utterly for granted as a monoglot, but is shown into sharp focus when you live far away from your own roots.

I do not think that anyone who has learnt say English as a second language could ever have the vocab of a native speaker..,,,

This is a very English view. I have, in fact, been accused on this very forum of being a troll for saying that I was ESL and using vocab that 'only a mt English person would use'.

Not really. I have spoken English (as a SL) since I was 2, attended bilingual school until 18, then went to uni in the UK (undergrad and postgrad) and have been married to an English dh since then. My English is no different from his, either in grammar or vocab.

It is still my second language, though. my first one has become utterly crap along they way, but never mind

Liara, same with me and French. I write French better than most French people (particular aptitude with spelling) and sound French in France, English in England, but French will always be my second language- not equally weighted with English.

When you establish a relationship with someone in one language, it can be very difficult to switch to another language. This is especially true in a parent/child relationship.

No. Language is a just a tool.
You can use it as you need.
There's is a lot of glorifying of language and putting the sentimental aspect of it on a pedestal on this thread.

That's nonsense.

I quite enjoy trying to decipher what my Spanish friend is saying, so apparently I have almost the understanding of a 3 year old!

I know a few people (including both my children) who have native level proficiency in their second language. One of my children's teachers speaks 5 languages and has native level proficiency in at least three of them.

My written french is native standard - it's just when I open my mouth that the accent gives it away!

I'm the (adult!) child of a bilingual father and an English-speaking mother. I don't speak or understand my fathers MT. He speaks to his relatives in his MT, sometimes about me or my DD, whilst I am present. I guess it's pretty rude, but meh, he doesn't get to use his MT often and so what? I know what he thinks of me and DD, I get our relationship.
I'm not sure that your explanation to your DC was that positive from your friends perspective, I can see why she's miffed. Why not arrange to meet up with her and talk it through?

Do you think it's a shame your dad didn't teach you his MT Saz?

I know a few people (including both my children) who have native level proficiency in their second language

I don't think you'd guess that English was a second language for people like Sandi Toksvig, Denise van Outen and Ulrika Jonsson.

If you have an instinct that she is saying things you wouldn't like to hear, or you feel she is wasting your time when she slips back to her native language, maybe question the friendship.

If neither of those two things apply, then I cannot understand why you would be bothered by it.

However, I can understand why your dd might be bothered, because she would lack the maturity to have confidence in her ability to read body language and to generally interpret the world around her. Maybe for her your friend should translate what has been said, and possibly get her to try a few words in the language, as that would only be good for her.

I would be hurt if I were your friend as it would signal to me a lack of trust. That might be why she has said she will back off. I think it is for you to make bridges if you want the friendship to continue.

Language is a just a tool.

I could not disagree more. Language is much, much more than a tool. The emotional content of language cannot be discounted IMO.