unclean house

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At the weekend I travelled to visit my DSis and her 5mo DD. I have my own 7mo DD but she wasn't with me for this weekend. She lives a 4 hour drive from me so I don't see her that often especially now we both have babies.

DSis house is, to put it lightly, an absolute tip. Clothes, used dishes (some mouldy), rubbish/used nappies, baby toys and just "things" lying everywhere. The dishes clearly haven't been done for a few weeks, there is no clear surface space in the kitchen and you can barely see the carpet in all of the rooms. On the kitchen window there were a lot of dead fruit flies. Herself and her DH "wash when needed" eg. 2 bowls and 2 mugs in the morning. I moved 6 black bin bags (of rubbish) from her utility room to the garden bin when I arrived. We ended up with take out for the 3 nights I was there as washing up enough to make a proper meal would have been too much hassle. I think they have take out the majority of the time. The fridge will filled with out of date food. Her DH works from home and his "office" space was the only semi-organised room in the house. The 2 spare bedrooms are filled to bursting with useless junk. Dsis and Dbil did not have one item hanging up in there wardrobe (all clothes are on the floor or piled up on the dining table) Her DD is well looked after I've no doubt about that (bathed, clean clothes, well fed etc) but I'm just not sure it's safe for her to be living amongst this. They have stopped sterilising her bottles (I don't sterilise my DDs anymore but I'm so worried about the cleanliness of the kitchen).

DSis has always been messy, I thought she would change for her DD sake but apparently not. Having my own baby I completely understand how hard it is to keep on top of everything so part of me is thinking don't say something but the other part of me thinks she has to change as it's just not fair. She has a large home (5 bed/3 bath) compared to my small flat. Her DH doesn't seem bothered about the mess and I'd say they are both 50/50 equal in the (little) housework they do.

She has asked me to come down next month for a week with DD this time but I honestly don't think my crawling baby would be safe in her house. I don't mind staying there myself, she is so welcoming and I don't mind the mess but DD is at that stage where she is getting into everything and puts everything into her mouth!

Would I be unreasonable to say something / what should I say if I do? She would be mortified I'm sure. Or should I presume she realises she needs to tidy up and will do so before we arrive?

If I am being completely unreasonable please let me know. She's the only person I know who lives like this though. Her and her DH are happy.

Could you offer to spend a day helping her to "tidy up a bit as you don't want to give her extra work" when you stay and arrange childcare if she agrees?

Positive, friendly, supportive help might be more useful than just pointing the mess out.

Hope it all works out for you all.

I have relatives who are similar, and I have cleaned their houses, with and without them. It is completely pointless, because they just let it deteriorate again and again.

They think I am crazy because I will clean the whole kitchen before I cook or eat there. Neither of us ever has a shower or bath at theirs and I always take slippers because I will not walk anywhere in bare feet...

I have accepted that this is the way they want to live. I have actually never been around the worst culprit's house. Ds has and came back telling me "mummy, you really wouldn't like it in X's house"!

Everyone who is being critical and asking the OP why she didn't just sort it out...it isn't that simple.

For people like your sister (and myself, to an extent) nothing will change if she doesn't change her mindset. If someone makes the entire house spotless, in a few weeks it won't matter unless she gets into the routine of having a place for everything to go and putting it there.

You really should tell her why you're reluctant to stay with your lo.

Cheerful is right. I used to go to visit my relative and spend my time quietly cleaning the kitchen (including oven, floors and fridge), bathrooms, hoovering tidying etc. it never made any difference. I even did it when pregnant with twins. At that point I decided that quite frankly if we could keep our house in reasonable conditions with two babies they could fend for themselves.

In my case the couple in question are lovely intelligent people they just genuinely don't care enough to keep it that way. There's other things they'd rather be doing. They keep it just the right side of hygiene to stay healthy but for anyone with 'normal' standards it's pretty unpleasant to stay in.

It honestly sounds that a clean and relatively tidy house is not a priority for either DSis or her DH. They simply prefer to spend their time doing other things and so let dirty dishes grow mould, don't take the rubbish out to the bin and leave dead flies on the window sills.

She has time to do her hair and make-up, he doesn't have to commute to work - they are deliberately choosing not to wash the dishes, pick up their clothes from the floor etc.

that is their choice (although it doesn't sound a great environment for their DD). What do other relatives and especially your Mum say about this?

Is the state of their home much worse than before they had the baby? If not, then tbh it would probably be a complete waste of your time helping them to clean and tidy because it would only be a total tip again in a couple of weeks unless they put in the effort every single day - washing up dishes, cooking meals, wiping down surfaces - the normal boring things of life! Sometimes people aren't bothered by living like this and it sounds as if your DSis is one of those people. If it bothers you that much, I'd meet her on neutral territory and just leave her to it.

I'm going to sound harsh but if my sister asked me to come to her house of filth I would say 'sorry Sis,I love you very much but your house is minging.When It's clean enough for me to bring my baby then we'll come' Surely to God she must know how bad it is.Has no one actually told her the truth?

Hello. My name is cleanmyhouse and I'm a messy bastard. I've been this way since I was quite young really. I'm better now that I have kids, but I still rate pretty poorly against my friends clean houses.

I don't think I'm quite as bad as your sis though. If I have people coming to stay, I clean. I also wash the dishes every day. Mostly. My kitchen floor is disgusting though. Shrug.

Anyway. Tell her. There is no question in my mind that she isn't totally aware of how messy/dirty her house is. Tell her you don't mind staying but don't want to take your child there. Don't clean for her. I hate it when people come in and clean my house, it feels like judgement rather than help. Also, why should you clean her house? There are two adults in that house, they're more than capable of doing it if that's what they want.

YANBU. I wouldn't want to take a really young kid at the stage yours is at into a situation like that.

Katie I don't know if it's that they can't be bothered necessarily.

With me it's not so much laziness, although I am lazy from time to time. I just don't see mess and disorganization the way some people seem to. I never learned how to be tidy. Simple things, like having a place for everything, do not naturally occur to me. (I'm not thick though, I promise! :o)

Also I have been diagnosed (a few times!) with ADD. I am not medicated for it because in a lot of instances I like the way my brain works and prefer the way I think to the way other people seem to. Except for in this cleanliness issue! Because of this, when things get very cluttered it's like I can't think. My brain doesn't know what to tell my eyes to focus on and I don't know where to begin. Clutter exhausts me mentally, which is a vicious cycle as then I can't deal with it.

Because I have DC and I am also a part time CM, I have had to learn strategies to keep my house tidy. And I have done, but it has been very hard work. I'm kondoing now as I find I do best with few possessions.

I think some people have ridiculously high standards but as I don't generally eat off floors they can be as sticky as you like, but a clean working surface in a kitchen is essential and I hate dirty dishes anywhere other than in a sink.
I can be a messy bugger but I do like kitchens and bathrooms to be clean. The rest of the place can be a shithole IMO.

If the family are healthy and can make themselves presentable to leave the house, I think you (and all the other housework bores) should actually butt out and get over yourselves. Housework is immensely tedious, and if people are not bothered about mess in their own homes it's their business.
Kids who grow up in fanatically clean and tidy houses also have problems. All the cleaning products fuck with the immune system, and they may be reluctant to have friends over because of the almighty fuss made any time anyone puts a cup on a table or takes a book from a shelf.

I have a friend like that.As soon as you stand up the cushions are plumped! No toys allowed downstairs. I feel on edge when I am there. I am no domestic goddess and I have an old house and furniture but the greatest compliment was when someone told me it was homely and welcoming

I know people like the OP's sister and I know people like your friend sand. Both environments are stressful and unpleasant to be around for any length of time.

Sometimes if you're living in a pigsty all the time it sort of creeps up on you and you no longer notice it. Perhaps if they were both working away from home the contrast between a neat office or shop and home sweet home would be more obvious.

If she buys nice stuff that never gets used then maybe the problem is that she is a perfectionist afraid of getting to grips with reality because she fears nothing could ever be as nice as she wants it to be, or because she realises somehow that getting from where she is now to where she wants to be in her head is going to involve a mammoth task and the details of sorting it out just end up discouraging her? Plus the clutter is all in her face all the time -- this adds stress she probably doesn't even know is there, and it can exhaust you visually.

Since she spends time doing herself up, straightens her hair, etc.,. before going out, she maybe does have some image of herself that she would like to transfer to the house but it is just too much. Maybe she is a bit like Snapple whose goal is to have her house look like a magazine spread? By contrast to getting your house even half way to looking the way you want, it's pretty easy to tackle your makeup and hair daily, and this little victory gives you a sense that at least you have accomplished something, or at least there is something that you can control.

I suspect what she needs is to have someone start her off, like Kim and Aggie, and then to be given an idea of how to stay on top of things with a simple rota. I would say from what you post, OP, that she would like things to look nicer.

There's a happy medium between spotless and tip. Nobody needs to slave over the house or follow guests around with a mop. It might take her three 15-minute stretches in a day to keep things neat and clean.

The thing is, untidiness really doesn't matter. This whole business of a woman's moral worth being associated with having a naice spotless lovely home is basically all about wasting women's time, just like the pursuit of romantic monogamy. Women are supposed to be all focussed on the home in order to reinforce the lie that they are biologically destined to be men's servants. As long as there are no real health hazards (rats, smells, structural damage etc) then it is absolutely no one else's business if people have better things to do with their time than the endless repetitive tedium of housework.

I really think you need to say something for the sake of your DN. What will happen when she starts crawling and exploring her environment. ?

My advice would be to say you find that she doesnt make an effort to clean so you feel relaxed when your there and ask if everything is ok. Could she have depression?..

My mate is really untidy, and messy, crunchy cat litter floors and dishes unwashed and dust - soooo much dust.

She's very busy, lovely, naturally untidy and I would never dream of saying a word (I'm not naturally tidy either but have become more so since living with tidy husband).

Went to visit with another friend (who doesn't know her as well) - who, unbeknownst to me, thought that doing a quick hoover round, a dust and squirting bleach down the toilets would be a favour to say thank you for having us to stay. I don't think it went down terribly well....as there was no discussion.

I'll do a load of washing up if I'm there (I get up early and its something to do). But no more than that.

This is really tricky. But she's your sister, with a new baby, offer to help out.

i disagree Solid. It's nothing to do with a woman's moral worth though, it's just that it's easier to be happier, more organised in the things that matter (like school, admin, finances, basic personal hygiene, food prep and eating reasonably healthily) and to function more effectively mentally, emotionally and logistically when you have a little bit of order around you. It's not nice for anyone, least of all children, living in a permanent state of chaos, filth, excessive hoarding/clutter and total disorganisation. It's like a heavy weight to be borne, that blights your life and drags you down. It's debilitating, like wading through treacle.

It's not nice for anyone, least of all children, living in a permanent state of chaos, filth, excessive hoarding/clutter and total disorganisation

SGB said untidiness doesnt matter and she is right, it doesnt. And since when did untidiness equal "chaos, filth, excessive hoarding and total disorganisation"?

The OPs sister has a problem because of the mould and dirt, but general untidiness is not an issue imo, you can be both clean AND untidy, they are not mutually exclusive.

Well ok, not filth, but extreme untidiness can equal certainly chaos. And when everywhere is untidy and chaotic and there are piles of stuff everywhere you look then basic cleaning can become very difficult.

Nobody said spotless. Or naice.

This home could be a place where her baby can crawl around safely, where money that could be used for activities with the baby isn't being thrown away on takeouts, and where mould isn't releasing spores that can affect breathing or the digestive system -- real health hazards; and nappies and food waste not disposed of will attract both insects and rodents. This isn't a case of untidiness, which can indeed be clean and isn't unhealthy.

As long as there are no real health hazards

The presence of dead flies, mould and used nappies lying around the place, along with 6 bin bags of rubbish they couldn't be arsed to put in the outside bin strongly suggests there are a number of very real health hazards in this house.

It's got nothing to do with DSis being a woman, as her DH is at home all day too. it is the combination of the pair of them that is the problem as they can't be arsed to do something as basic as put a dirty nappy into a bag and then take it outside to the bin.

PRetty soon their DD is going to be crawling everywhere - right among all the filthy rubbish they can't be bothered to deal with.

I think this is one for your parents, OP. I know I would say something to my offspring if they had a household like that with small child. Hopefully tactfully but firmly.