unclean house

[nnnamechangeddd]

At the weekend I travelled to visit my DSis and her 5mo DD. I have my own 7mo DD but she wasn't with me for this weekend. She lives a 4 hour drive from me so I don't see her that often especially now we both have babies.

DSis house is, to put it lightly, an absolute tip. Clothes, used dishes (some mouldy), rubbish/used nappies, baby toys and just "things" lying everywhere. The dishes clearly haven't been done for a few weeks, there is no clear surface space in the kitchen and you can barely see the carpet in all of the rooms. On the kitchen window there were a lot of dead fruit flies. Herself and her DH "wash when needed" eg. 2 bowls and 2 mugs in the morning. I moved 6 black bin bags (of rubbish) from her utility room to the garden bin when I arrived. We ended up with take out for the 3 nights I was there as washing up enough to make a proper meal would have been too much hassle. I think they have take out the majority of the time. The fridge will filled with out of date food. Her DH works from home and his "office" space was the only semi-organised room in the house. The 2 spare bedrooms are filled to bursting with useless junk. Dsis and Dbil did not have one item hanging up in there wardrobe (all clothes are on the floor or piled up on the dining table) Her DD is well looked after I've no doubt about that (bathed, clean clothes, well fed etc) but I'm just not sure it's safe for her to be living amongst this. They have stopped sterilising her bottles (I don't sterilise my DDs anymore but I'm so worried about the cleanliness of the kitchen).

DSis has always been messy, I thought she would change for her DD sake but apparently not. Having my own baby I completely understand how hard it is to keep on top of everything so part of me is thinking don't say something but the other part of me thinks she has to change as it's just not fair. She has a large home (5 bed/3 bath) compared to my small flat. Her DH doesn't seem bothered about the mess and I'd say they are both 50/50 equal in the (little) housework they do.

She has asked me to come down next month for a week with DD this time but I honestly don't think my crawling baby would be safe in her house. I don't mind staying there myself, she is so welcoming and I don't mind the mess but DD is at that stage where she is getting into everything and puts everything into her mouth!

Would I be unreasonable to say something / what should I say if I do? She would be mortified I'm sure. Or should I presume she realises she needs to tidy up and will do so before we arrive?

If I am being completely unreasonable please let me know. She's the only person I know who lives like this though. Her and her DH are happy.

Has she always struggled with moving forward or making change? Is she generally quite passive? In the case of my relative, they tend to have quite a 'powerless' outlook and have the attitude that there's no point making an effort because everything just turns crap in the end anyway, and I view their home as an extension of this mindset.

It's tricky. But she must know that this isn't ok - she presumably goes to other people's houses and sees that they don't have mould growing on things?

Can you be blunt and ask her in what she's struggling with the most and tell her you're worried about the health hazard to the baby?

I've been like this in the past (though no dirty diapers/moldy dishes) and it would probably be okay to just gently ask "can I come help you sort things out a bit before your DD starts crawling? When would work for you?"

She has always been very laid back and calm. She buys nice things for the house but never uses them as she always has plans to tidy/ decorate but just never does it. They were living out for boxes for over a year after moving to this house. She bought a steam mop after I bought one but it's yet to leave the box. She has the best intentions but perhaps can't motivate herself?

In my case I was always uber messy and it didnt bother me. It only bothered me after I had DS as I realised that while I could step over the mess, he couldnt and it wasnt a place he could play in. But I didnt know how to do it. Genuinely.

There was so much stuff everywhere, it was all just too much to know where to start. I knew I needed to change and I wanted to but I didnt know how! I didnt have PND and in fact when I did have PND with DD it manifested in being obsessed with cleanliness and tidying, so it doesnt necessarily mean the sister is ill.

It sounds to me like she has always lived this way so either doesnt realise how bad it is, does see it but doesnt realise it is bad for her child or does see it and doesnt know how to tackle such a gargantuan job so is putting it off.

OP, if she is receptive then perhaps you could suggest that she gets her DH involved, or could you be the jokey SIL with "I bought 3 pairs of marigolds, yours are the large ones BIL!!" ?

So she does see it but can get started?

Then I would think that helping her gut the place would be a big help, but I also think there is a good chance it will slip back, which is why she needs regular help in the form of a cleaner if they can afford one.

can't not can

Thank you Bogeyface - how did you go about making changes?

I think there just so used to living like this now they can't see it ever being any different?

I think she probably has too much stuff and there is often real reasons and fear while people accumulate things which they can not clean.

I am just getting to bed after doing 1.5 hours housework.

I really really struggle because we have too much stuff. My ideal would be a clutter free pared down house but the reality is too many toys and clothes.

I also have a cleaner come 2 x a week and still struggle but didn't used to before kids. Strangely the cleanest it was - was when I worked ft with the two young kids and had no cleaner but I would do a blitz and then would sometimes find myself cleaning and washing until 3 am in the morning.

I nag at my dh to help more but he does help quite a bit.

Sometimes it can seem like a hurricane can hit the house.

I have set myself a goal of having a party in summer to ensure the house is looking good. But you see my goal is for the house to look like it is worthy of a magazine spread. I also need to get quite a bit of maintenance done on the house.

I think I am a naturally very very messy person. For me - my kids having fun and reading and playing is really important, then I would prefer to read or do something. They always have clean clothes and it is hygienic but to be honest the house can look like a bomb has hit it. I feel I go from tidy to bomb site at a great speed but getting it back to tidy takes forever. It does stress me out.

The post from crystal haze resonates. It is like chaos signifies what is going on inside.

Also I think the op being supportive yet helpful would be fabulous.

I think if you could help on a practical level while not judging then that would be wonderful.

Well like I say, my friend helped me. She talked to me in a sensitive way about it, I sobbed and sobbed and she helped me crack on with it. I just couldnt see where to start and she prioritised, so we started with the kitchen, then the lounge as thats where DS spent most of his time then room by room after that.

I am still a right messy old bag, I can turn an empty room into a jumble sale just by sitting in a corner! I dont really know how I do it! But I do manage to get a handle on it before it gets really bad. I hoover every day, wipe all the kitchen surfaces, clean the bathroom, load the dishwasher ( getting that REALLY helped actually, on a practical note). Laundry funnily enough is not a problem, washing etc is fine. Putting away? Not so much..... I dont think I own anything that lives on a hanger! My clothes are all in piles in my wardrobe! Clean and neatly folded, but still piles!

And little things like only having 1 set of "good" bed linen. I have several cheaper sets but I love 100% cotton bedding so I spend a bit of money on some really decent stuff. I take it off, wash it and then put it back on. I cant get back into bed unless I do this, so I HAVE to do it. Rather than washing it, folding it, leaving it in the basket, putting it on the stairs...I must take that up and put it away.....taking it to the bathroom and then getting distracted so it stays next to the airing cupboard....I really must put that away...... You get the idea. The spares are in vacuum bags on a shelf that need the little step ladder to get to, so hard enough work to not think "fuck it, I'll put a spare on".

In a nutshell, I have made some jobs much easier such as the washing up, and other things I have made it harder to avoid doing, such as the bed linen.

I don't believe that people who value cleanliness let it slide completely after they sprog.

DP was fastidious pre-DD. Afterwards, still fastidious. I was a feculent slob before. Still am. Ish.

I would say something. I think it's actually worse when the kids are older because then they are ashamed to have other people over to visit them. And they never learn how to clean themselves. Also you never know if your kids might be more sensitive to mess (sensory disorder, anxiety etc). I think it is probably a low level sign of not coping.

I have had two friends exactly like this, and one other who, while not nearly as bad with the levels of mess, did really let things slide on the cleanliness front more than was pleasant. It's so stressful to be around. Did you not say anything to her? I wouldn't say anything to a friend, I just eventually stopped wanting to go there, but if it were my sister I would have to say something.

Just tell her straight that you won't visit her or bring your DD there because he house is an unsanitary, unsafe pigsty and it's stressful to spend time there.

Please, please talk to your sister.

I grew up in a house that was grubby - dirty clothes dumped on the landing, rotting fruit in the fruit basket, over flowing bin and kitchen surfaces covered with plates and not wiped down.

It was embarrassing and shameful and humiliating. Having friends over was awkward. I realised very early on most people didn't live like this and I hated it. It effected my ability to make friends at school and it has given me a life long loathing (almost phobia) of fresh fruit.

I would very gently suggest FlyLady. Not sure how, maybe just buy a FlyLady magnet and put it on her fridge. Curiosity might get the better of her! It is a great system for people who feel overwhelmed or are suffering from depression. Not suggesting your DS is, but just in case someone else is who is reading this.

I can do relate to your posts Bogeyface! I have one really tidy room in my house, one that is a disgraceful junk room and the others are somewhere in between! I have made huge strides in keeping on top of things cleaning wise but I really struggle with the clutter. I wish I could just be minimalist but I just don't seem to be made like that! It drives me nuts!!

I agree she needs to do something for her dd if nothing else, I'm desperate to ensure that dd's friends feel at home here so I try very hard to keep things looking okayish!!

My PILs house is like this. DH says it was always the same even when he and his siblings were small. It's really dirty and everything's got fleas from the mangy dog so we don't go there much or stay there for long when we do, never leave 7 month DD there and don't eat there. When we pop in DD stays firmly on one of our laps with no exposed skin to minimise flea bites. It's fucking grim to be honest but FIL especially is super volatile so bringing it up would cause a drama. We just avoid it there. I think you have to weigh up saying anything vs the problems it would cause. Your sister sounds less like an arse than my PIL though!

Oh and also DH is never ill, now I think of it, so maybe there's something in the immune system thing! lol.

I met a friend at playgroup a few years ago when our dd's were tiny. They're almost 4 now.
I invited her to mine first and she kept commenting on how clean and tidy my house is.
I struggle with ocd with cleaning so yes my house is very clean but it's not nice at the other end of the spectrum when you can't leave the house until you've hoovered yourself out of the door:)
My friend kept putting off me visiting her house and eventually said its because it's in such a state.
I told her not to worry etc that I wanted to visit her and not inspect the house.
I eventually went ( she invited me!) And it was pretty horrendous but she told me that she was up until 11 the night before cleaning it.
We've since spoke about things and it turns out that both of our mum's were spotless and we grew up in homes that were immaculate.
My friend "rebelled" against her mum and I ended up the same as mine.

She is very aware over the state of her house and teases me over mine!
It's just not a priority for her.
I haven't been since, she prefers to come here and I'm happy with that.

If this was my dsis, I would say something and offer to help, she's probably completely overwhelmed by it, especially with all the extra baby stuff.

Good luck

Could you not say that you would love to come and visit. But as your DD is that little bit older and bit more mobile you are not sure that it will be possible unless they can clear the floor so she can roll around safely. Then you could suggest that if they'd like a hand you can come and stay at your parents for a couple of days and help out whilst you leave your DD with them.

We are a bit in a similar position (except my sibling and I do not speak). Last time we were there DH was horrified that he had been fed food from their kitchen, sounds similar to your DSis's and has said we are never going back there. Floor is similar, things strewn over the floor. A clean patch about 3 square metre was fenced off as a play pen and was filled with toys, so you could barely see the carpet anyway. The only place in the whole house clean enough to lie down my baby to do a nappy change was on the sideboard. And that resulted in a shout fest of being told I was insulting them etc etc. My parents won't say anything to them, although they are very disapproving of it and always tell me it was me who they thought they would be so disappointed in complain and say they understand why we don't want to go there, but insist we do none the less. The result is that we never go to visit my parents because they expect us to take our children round to play with niece&nephew.

Aren't you meant to sterilise bottles for the first year?

I've never sterilized any bottles! Maybe it's an American thing.

I mean, I wash them certainly but I've never had a sterilizer or anything.

Sterilising bottles

It has nothing to do with what age the baby is, what milk you put in the bottle or if they're 'putting everything else in their mouth' or not.

It is because the bacteria in milk grows very very fast. You don't need to sterilise any bottles if they are washed properly, however, it's not easy to do, people get complacenent about all the little nooks & crannies so it's easier to make them safe by sterilising them.

Obviously as a baby gets bigger their immune system is better able to cope with bacteria, but only marginally.

If you are using bottles they need to be washed very very carefully &/or sterilised.

I agree with can you for give her. It's not normal for some people, granted - but it is totally normal for others. My closest friend is like this. She has two beautiful, clean, well cared for DSs and the house is a pigsty - and it has always been.

She and her DP do the bare minimum usually, the kitchen is always full of dirty dishes and the dishwasher is always full (sometimes clean, sometimes empty). The living room is plastered with toys and is a health hazard for toddlers. They also have takeaway often because cooking in the kitchen is high on impossible.

I often ask if I can unload the dishwasher or wash a few plates while she BFs DS2 but she always flat out refuses.

There was a really bad mould problem in several rooms last time I went round, but they don't seem bothered. Again, she is in a good, professional job and is not depressed as far as I can tell (and I don't say this glibly). She is just, by her own admission, really lazy.

I'm not sure there's much you can do for people like that. If MH issues are in play it can be different.