to think for this alone we should all vote labour?

[HyperThread]

Ed Miliband promises not to back down on tax avoidance, and promises to put UK tax havens on blacklist unless they end their system of secrecy

www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/06/ed-miliband-tax-avoidance-business-labour

This will make a huge difference to our economy, and unlike Cameron who has completely ignored the issue, and instead of making these multi billionares pay their fare share of taxes, he wants to bring cuts to benefits, when normal people are really struggling as it is.

We really need to get rid of the Tory government, whose policies have mainly been just to make the rich richer. Miliband might not have the charisma and charm that people want to see in a leader, but at least he'll get rid of Cameron and his super rich cronies.

Oh be fair TheCat, NewLabour created plenty of non-job public sector positions too. And doesn't Scotland, which is supposed to be more socialist, have something like 1/3 of all jobs in the public sector?

Or if they are, they aren't socialist
But the OP wasn't about socialism, it was about the Labour party - something very different.

This is only about the 500th time I've had to explain this on a forum Have you wondered why your message isn't understood?

NewLabour created plenty of non-job public sector positions too TheChandler

They did, yes. Can't confirm your statistics but it sounds plausible. One of the great lies of modern capitalism is job creation. Capitalism is utterly incapable of creating jobs on the scale governments might want.

But the OP wasn't about socialism, it was about the Labour party - something very different Sallyingforth

Quite. People assume that Labour = Left wing = socialism, and it hasn't been that way since 1951, at least.

People on the right want to fervently believe that is the case, almost as much as people of the left.

Mrsbird, I wonder if you can explain just how Ed Miliband stabbed his brother in the back. They were two individuals with different views on the future of their party. They were both entitled to stand for the leadership.

I assure you that primogeniture plays no part in Labour leadership elections.

No one I've ever asked has been able to articulate exactly what it was that Ed did wrong. So, go on, what did he do that was so very bad. Make sure your argument would stand up to scrutiny outside a primary school playground.

10 actions Labour will take immediately

Freeze gas and electricity bills until 2017 and reform the energy market

Get 200,000 homes built a year by 2020

Stop families that rent being ripped off and help them plan for the future with new long term predictable tenancies

Cut income tax for hardworking people through a lower 10p starting tax rate, and introduce a 50p top rate of tax as we pay off the deficit in a fair way

Ban exploitative zero-hour contracts

Make work pay by strengthening the Minimum Wage and providing tax breaks to firms that boost pay through the Living Wage

Back small businesses by cutting business rates and reforming the banks

Help working parents with 25 hours of free childcare for three- and four-year-olds

Tackle the abuse of migrant labour to undercut wages by banning recruitment agencies that only hire foreign workers and pressing for stronger controls in Europe

Back the next generation with a job guarantee for the young unemployed and more apprenticeships

Seems good to me.

I think poor old Ed suddenly found himself looking popular and for once outside of his brothers shadow and stood for ejection. He had no intention or desire to actually win but was caught up in the moment.

He looked absolutely like a rabbit in the headlights ever since and is by far the most disastrous and media unsavvy idiot since michael foot.

This latest policy is basically saying oh look we hate the rich more than the Tories! It's pathetic.

And as for Ed balls he was Gordon browns right hand twat in the treasury and should hang his head in shame.

They would be a disaster

TheCat * I would actually argue that all parties in the UK who are in favour of the generous benefits system (in international comparitive terms), the NHS and a redistributive form of tax are socialist to a greater or lesser degree. Every party knows that they will have no whiff of power if they remove any of the pillars of British society, so all they can really do is tweak, spout rhetoric and help out their friends.

As for non-jobs in the public sector, some local authorities have it down to a fine art. In Edinburgh, the local council has created a couple of entire industries, in licensing various activities and passing legislation to allow its favoured contractors to do tens of millions of pounds of "repair work" on private properties.

Its very easy to say stuff, what's the chances of them actually doing it, their record isn't exactly reassuring...

If pre-election promises were contractually binding, yes.

Does anyone actually believe politicians when there's an election on the horizon. They promise everything and deliver very little.

I would actually argue that all parties in the UK who are in favour of the generous benefits system{...}are socialist to a greater or lesser degree TheChandler

There are no socialist countries left in the world. The UK certainly isn't one. All there is to choose from is various forms of capitalist liberal democracies, and one party states like the PRC, North Korea and Cuba.

The default setting of all these countries, bar none, is preserve the interests of the ruling classes. Which is fine if you are part of it. (I'm not)

Even the Conservatives haven't been Conservative since 1979.

There are no socialist countries left in the world

That's very true Cat. Every attempt at socialism has failed.

I wonder why? Could it possibly be that socialism is just not viable?

The Chief Minister of Gibralter, which was named as one of the overseas territories under threat of blacklisting, has written to Miliband pointing out, in diplomatic language, that he's a blithering idiot.

(wanders into thread)
I'm voting Labour this time.
(wanders back out again).

nippie, plenty of those aren't what they say though on the list. Eg the landlord and tenant changes will allow landlords to get you out if the landlord wants to move in so that is not the sort of secure new 3 year tenancy labour deludes people into thinking.

A Labour victory would be very bad news of the UK.

Thank you ChillieJeanie for that link about Gibraltar.

It's hilarious!

Sally has it in a nut shell.

In response to the OP:

An appealing idea for some of the electorate, but so completely lacking in substance as to be meaningless. Miliband cannot unilaterally create a blacklist, and even as a UK only blacklist would be of no consequence.

Another piece of Labour spin in the hope that the great British public will look no further than the headline.

Labour policies are so full of holes you could drive a truck through them. Pie in the sky promises are all very well if you're a tiny party with no teams of advisors. But Labour has no such excuse - they just seem to choose to employ people who have no common sense or foresight (although that seems to be a fairly common disease afflicting most of government). Combine that with a desperate desire to win votes and you've got a leader who will say the first thing that comes into his advisors' heads as long as it sounds vaguely appealing. But they can worry about the details once they're in government, right. Pssshaw. Sack of shite, the lot of them. Not that the other lot are any better.

There are no socialist countries left in the world.

I'd say there are no Communist countries in the world. There are plenty of socialist countries. Unless you are using some very outdated and specific criterion for socialism. Surely any redistributive system of taxation is socialist?

I wonder why? Could it possibly be that socialism is just not viable? Sallyingforth

Could well be. It's been said socialism is fine for insects, not so good for humans. I would much rather live in rather live in a liberal democracy with a regulated market economy. I was once in the Socialist Worker Party, when I was a student. I once said something nice about Israel, a nation founded by socialists, and that was it for me. Who wants to stand around in the cold trying to sell newspapers, anyway?

The ugly truth is most socialist societies could not sustain themselves, even after resorting to slavery/forced labour.

Most former socialist states form into the thing they once most despised.
People's Republic of China - Capitalist roaders
Former Soviet Union - Gangster capitalism
North Korea - Hereditary monarchy

In the UK, of course, we have socialism for the wealthy, and capitalism for everyone else.

I think their statement on funding Surestart across the country is more likely to win them votes.
heard it on radio today.

Surely any redistributive system of taxation is socialist?

Maybe, but not in Britain. The first government to attempt large-scale wealth redistribution here was the Liberal government of H. H. Asquith, 1906-1916. That government had people like Churchill in it, i.e. fierce opponents of socialism. The Lloyd George government (1916-1922), which was a coalition of Liberals and Conservatives, tried to carry on those policies

I have a degree in politics and history. Does it show?

I'll be voting SNP. I feel sorry for those that don't have that option.

Anyone who's prepared to be advised by Tony "the operator" Blair would never get my vote.

They're all a bunch of champagne socialists.