To think that forced adoption is the best thing for many children

[ReallyTired]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31089412

Clearly taking a child into care or complusory adoption should be a last restort. However I don't think that there is a fundermental right to be a parent. There is a fundermental right for a child to have a decent childhood. Parents should not be numerous chances to get parenting right. Baby P is a prime example of a baby who should have been taken into care at birth.

I feel the secrecy of the family courts is an issue. In many cases there are strong reasons why someone should never be allowed to have care of a child. We need a way that there can be an appeals proceedure that puts the right of the child first.

I dunno about forced adoption but I believe kids should be taken into foster care more readily.

We have had to call Children's Services several times now and the NSPCC due to our neighbours scary arguments, screaming, swearing, all in front of their toddlers and once or twice, my own kids have been sat with me in our living room when we have heard one or the other parent scream, followed by wall-shaking thumping sounds as if someone or something is being thrown against a door or wall, followed by child screams. I've heard the dad call one of the kids a fucking cunt - several times. My kids heard it too. And I heard the woman call the kids pretty well every foul abusive word you can imagine. To me it's pretty cut and dried - emotional abuse at the very least.

Months on and both children remain in the 'care' of these animals and both children we still hear being abused. I came to the conclusion no-one gives a fuck because if the next generation get screwed up that's not just jobs now for social workers and the police, but jobs in the future too when they in their turn, screw up their kids.

I'd love to sue the neighbours for child abuse - not even of their own kids but of mine, who have to listen to it constantly in their own house and garden.

NSPCC had the Children's Services and the police notified recently after the woman very loudly, in the garden threatened to knock one of the children out and the following day my kids heard the yell-thump-waah.

No-one has moved to get those kids to a place of safety. In their case forced adoption would be wonderful TBH and their only fighting chance of growing up into undamaged adults. But I'd guess in the majority of cases, fostering longterm would be the solution.

Truth is there are some people out there who never should have kids. I once worked for a Head teacher who one day pulled me to one side and told me he read in the paper about an ex pupil who had just been sent down for battering her baby to death. He said he remembered when he taught her, at primary age, she was already damaged (presumably by her parents). And he wished some parents were forcefully sterilised, they bring such misery into the world. There are a lot of people who work with damaged kids who start out all starry eyed and probably end up thinking this, if they won't say it out loud. I don't FWIW, at the same time - I don't see why we are letting people like my neighbours with serious issues, parent children unsupervised when emotionally and mentally they are tantrumy children themselves.

But someone, somewhere isn't bothered about these kids- just keeping the kids in situ as it's presumably (a) cheaper and (b) keeps someone in work.

Joffrey thats mind blowing.

Do you ever call the police?

There was fighting near me, and I called 101 and was told to call 999 next time if there was fighting....

If police have numerous records agaisnt them

Depression in parents as the most severe impact on children's development out of all the most common mental illnesses. If it isn't mitigated by a non depressed parent, supportive family or the depressed parent seeking treatment swiftly it can be devastating to children.
Nobody wants to punish depressed parents but living with one can be hugely damaging.

also have you written it all down,

I think in your circs I would email MP with some circs you describe, how many times you have called SS etc and the impact on your own family...

I presume I was with two different branches of Social Services - one was specifically Child Protection. On the letters with details of Case Conferences, there were separate people named - one for Child Protection and one down as Social Services.

The woman from SS was the person I had the most contact with, and she was wonderful. She put in her own complaint about the behaviour of the person from Child Protection and the ridiculous things written in the letters. She was furious and did her best to reassure me.

Just as very minor examples - they stated that I was a practising Christian (I'm a lifelong atheist, card-carrying member of the BHA and religion was never discussed), and that my husband suffered from a number of serious illnesses including narcolepsy and a skin disorder that would seriously affect his ability to support me!

DH is one of the healthiest people I know, has lovely skin and certainly doesn't have narcolepsy.

There was enough accurate stuff to know that it wasn't the case that letters had got mixed up. Frankly I think she was just a bit thick.

I can only believe it was the SS lady's complaint that got CP removed from my case as I never saw or heard from them again.

I was tempted to send a copy of her letters back with every grammatical error and typo corrected in red pen, comments on all the lies and factual errors and backed up with a GP's letter regarding my husband's health. But I was too fucking scared to risk upsetting them and ending up being considered difficult or impulsive or something.

You find yourself covering up any doubts or worries you have - even normal ones that most mothers have - because you are so terrified of looking less than 100% competent. I had complete trust in the system and authorities until I found myself in the middle of it.

One of the reasons we only have one child is because we can't face the thought of going through all that again, and what if they told worse lies and we lost DD or something because of it. Better to keep out of the system.

Still makes me shake thinking about the trauma of opening that first letter - it made my depression even worse, feeling that I was being criticised, scrutinised and judged by some uneducated numpty who had met me for exactly 30 minutes and had huge power over me and my unborn child. I felt a failure before I'd even started.

Could be that your area outsourced child protection. A social worker wouldn't be allowed to make a complaint about another social worker in the same department. Outsourcing is such a bad idea.

I had complete trust in the system and authorities until I found myself in the middle of it

This is true of so many of our organizations.

Its only when your in the Orwellian thick of it do you realize no one seems to know or care whats going on, trying to correct sloppy mistakes is impossible and yet a simple mistake sets the whole thing off on a wrong course.

I have known a child both before and after her forced adoption, and I say without hesitation that it's been the best thing for her. She is clean, fed, dressed, cared for - and above all, loved and happy in a way she never was before. I feel like she's been given a chance, whereas before she had none at all.

I agree that parents should be given every help to make the best family they could be, but there are some cases when it's never going to be enough.

KnittedJimmy the worst incident with the screamthumpwaah thing was heard by my teenager when we were out and he said he heard the word "knife" in there, but couldn't hear any other words. That was the one where I'd finally have cracked and rung the coppers myself but I wasn't there and didn't want my son cross-questioned so decided instead to contact the NSPCC by their snitch email the next morning. They replied within an hour and said they were concerned and involving Children's Services and the police. We haven't seen any coppers turn up.

Months ago the council advised me to ring 101. They then advised me to ring 999. With so much contradictory advice - and knowing they wouldn't bother coming out for a 'domestic' despite their new guidelines - I thought sod it. The next day we were in and I heard the screaming, thump, child screaming and that was when I contacted the NSPCC as I'd still been dithering.

Meanwhile my younger kid had hit video record on the iPad and caught a tremendous fight, where the dad started screaming abuse not just at the mum but one of the kids, when it intervened.

I did not report anonymously but gave my name and email contact, so the police can contact me and ask for further info and I mentioned in the first email I had a recording of another incident. NSPCC said the police might contact me for more info. But so far - they haven't bothered. Maybe they think we're just busybodies. I do feel like dragging all the agencies involved - police, council, SS through the courts because if they don't count these repeated events as child abuse and something more than just 'a domestic'.

oops hit send to soon.

ETA: .... then they should look at the effect living in constant range of hearing this is having on my kids.

Having lived next door to that, I can't say I believe in second chances, either. These twats were given a chance to become decent parents. They failed. Another year has passed and that baby and infant are now 2 and 4. I used to teach and have known kids from similar parents who are already 'lost' when they start in Reception. Damage is done and irreversible. So get them the hell out of there rather than add to it y giving idiots a touchy feely second chance.

"Just a domestic" shouldn't even be a thing any more. They are supposed to follow up any incident, even if it is isolated.

It sounds horrendous to force adoption, but sadly I've seen instances where birth parents are alcoholics/drug addicts/too chaotic to even look after themselves, let alone a child. In these cases the child is almost certainly better off being adopted into a safe, caring and responsible home.

Joffrey, how can they build up a picture if you don't call the police every time? It's not up to you to decide they won't bother coming out for a 'domestic' and you're completely wrong to be honest. I'm glad you're trying to do something but the right thing to do is call the police, every time.

I think that to say that someone should never have a second chance is a bit draconian. However I feel parents should demonstrate that they will not f*ck up if given a second chance. If someone circumstances are completely different then its quite possible they can make a go at being a parent.

My objection is when people are given fifth and sixth chances. How many times should someone be allowed to fail. A child's right to a safe and caring home should be paramount.

Yes, second chances are fine, but how many chances are given before it's time to say enough is enough.

I fostered a young person, they'd been removed for the first time at 8 due to their mother's heroin addiction, they were returned after a while, then removed again, then returned, then removed. The mother has had several more children. Each time being given a 'second chance'. I'm still in touch with this young person and their mother has just had another baby. She's being given yet another 'second chance'

If I wasn't closely involved with social services and these children I'd never believe it.

It's not even really about chances. It's about what can the parent do to improve their parenting capacity in the time available. So an alcoholic may relapse, more than once, but if they keep getting back on the wagon and always tell the social worker, reflect on why/how it happened, take steps to avoid triggers etc then they may be assessed as having made sufficient changes. Whereas someone who rapes a child is never going to get a second chance, because there is nothing that can be offered that will evidence that the person is safe in the future.

Joffrey, is it worth contacting a senior police officer? There have been some high profile cases recently when police have failed to respond to urgent calls and, quite apart from the need to protect those children, the police might worry about covering their own backs if the children are harmed and it comes out that there have been several reports which they have ignored.

ReallyTired I agree with Stinkle - in the case I knew, nothing seemed to make any difference. The little girl was finally taken away when it was clear nothing was ever going to change, and that she would only get in more danger as she grew.

NSPCC told me they have passed it on to the police now, but I'm not seeing anyone even vaguely copper-like, at their door. And I've had no email asking me for further information.

And you're right Icimoi. Next time I will ring them. It's not for me to think they are idiots and won't come out. I just don't even have faith they'd be efficient enough to record it or assign it a job number (or whatever they call it).

I am worried that the more we complain the easier it might be for them to claim harassment or simply that we have it in for them. By the time the police got here (if they bothered to show at all) it would have quietened down and they will do what they have done every time - literally looked the council Community Officer dead in the eye and told him they never argue or shout. But then what child abuser is going to admit what they're doing..?

There are definite mental health issues in the case of both of them and the woman looks like an addict/alcoholic.

Spero that case is awful, and I'm so glad the right of appeal exists in that instance, thanks for posting.

I didn't bother reading past the first page... but "forced adoption".. isn't that what the stolen generation was all about? Better for the kids and all that jazz?

Surely it's better foe children to be "stolen" from their parents than have their childhood stolen by abuse. In the 1950s children were taken off their mothers for the crime of being illegitimate. Quite rightly we now give financial support to single mothers. Gypsies also had their children taken as gypsies were deemed unsuitable parents because of racial origin.

Removing a child from an abusive situation is very different.

No forced adoption doesn't mean that children will necessarily remain with abusive parents. I live in a country where there is no forced adoption, and the authorities can and will remove children from their parents. Such children are then out into foster care or orphanages. Parents have to consent to their children being adopted ( and most don't, so children tend to remain in long- term care until 18).

Long term foster care or orphanages (thank god we don't have such things here) have much worse outcomes for children than adoption. There have been many, many longitudinal studies which demonstrate that adoption or permanence is far far better for children and affords them the best chance at forming healthy attachments and developing a positive sense of identity and self esteem etc. Foster care is suitable for some children but not the ideal. It's better than growing up being abused but not a suitable alternative to adoption.
And since we put the needs of the child above the needs of the parents, we have an adoption system.