Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that forced adoption is the best thing for many children

225 replies

ReallyTired · 03/02/2015 12:28

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31089412

Clearly taking a child into care or complusory adoption should be a last restort. However I don't think that there is a fundermental right to be a parent. There is a fundermental right for a child to have a decent childhood. Parents should not be numerous chances to get parenting right. Baby P is a prime example of a baby who should have been taken into care at birth.

I feel the secrecy of the family courts is an issue. In many cases there are strong reasons why someone should never be allowed to have care of a child. We need a way that there can be an appeals proceedure that puts the right of the child first.

OP posts:
Iwasinamandbunit · 03/02/2015 17:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 03/02/2015 17:27

Babies aren't adopted immediately because the court process takes up to 6 months
They are often placed with foster carers who plan to adopt the baby so they don't have a change of carer, only legal status

Stinkle · 03/02/2015 17:31

There's far too much emphasis on the rights of the parents and not enough on the right of a child to be safe and loved.

Yes, I agree.

I'm a foster carer, we mainly have older children (11 - 18). These children have been in and out of short term foster care for years, returned to parents, only to be removed again. They have disordered attachments, all sorts of behavioural, social and emotional problems that will affect the rest of their lives.

My current placement has been known to SS for 16 years. Some parents will never get their acts together no matter how many chances or how much support they've been given

FunkyPeacock · 03/02/2015 17:40

Yes, I would broadly agree that for many children, forced adoption at a young age gives them the best chance of not having their whole life ruined or overshadowed by inadequate parenting or abuse

This doesn't mean I can't sympathise with the birth parents but the needs of the child have to come first

I worry a lot about the number of children being brought up by adults who are completely lacking in basic life skills and possibly have no experience from their own childhood of decent parenting

BertieBotts · 03/02/2015 17:42

It is far too complicated to have a simple answer like it's always/never right. Social care needs FAR bigger budgets, more staff, infinitely more resources. That is the root of the vast majority of the problems.

What are the alternatives? Sometimes there are none. People cannot keep having more and more chances when they are not keeping their children safe. Indeed, when they are the cause of the danger.

It might well be that an abusive parent is acting out things they themselves have suffered as a child, but that doesn't make it okay! What, leave the children there so they can go on to repeat the cycle too, that works? And when somebody does not know normal, basic things about keeping a child safe we can't just say oh but they didn't know, never mind. You either have to give them adequate support (and adequate is HUGE. We are not talking about somebody being unaware of a cultural norm about leaving children alone when they are reasonably safe, we are talking serious neglect and a total lack of awareness of safety or hygiene.) or remove the children. Perhaps not removing contact entirely, although that has downsides in itself of not allowing the children to fully move on.

Warning upsetting content in this paragraph. Skip if you want.
In the USA, parents convicted of abuse or neglect are sometimes offered parenting classes rather than prison. In the book 123 Magic (which is just an ordinary parenting book with advice on discipline) the author describes two such parents: One had poured bleach down her child's throat and the other had set fire to their child's comfort object in the kitchen sink with lighter fluid. As a punishment. These are not parents who "don't know better" or have got to the end of their rope - that is serious intent to harm and shows a frightening lack of empathy, possibly at sociopathic levels. Some parents are addicts and will always put their addiction over their children. A friend of mine moved into a maisonette which had previously been some kind of crack den or brothel, and there was a small cupboard about the size of an airing cupboard. The house was empty and had been cleaned, but inside this cupboard, they found hundreds of shoe prints and scuff marks around halfway up the walls, the size of a small child's feet. Around and around and around.

I am sure that anybody who has had any contact with children's services could tell you worse. It's really, really, fricking dangerous to assume that all parents are basically good people and can be good parents if they are given the right support and enough information. That is a fallacy - an understandable one, given that we tend to assume that others think like we do. We all make mistakes, as parents, and learn and improve on them - it's easy to assume that that means some people have more learning to do than others, but the mistake is assuming that everybody wants to or can learn and improve. It's easy to think "But if I was in that situation and I genuinely didn't know, it's not fair" but the reality is different. Social services cannot hang around a family forever and keep on holding their hand, their budgets are too stretched. They have to be sure that the parents are able to keep their children safe, care adequately for the children and not harm them, without needing to be told how all the time before they allow children to remain in a family.

Remember some parents are abusive partners. Some parents have personality disorders. Go and read the Relationships board for an idea of what that is like to live with. And for a child dealing with that kind of treatment, it is worse. An adult has some sense of agency and some hope of leaving. A child will assume that their parent is absolutely right, and accept the treatment as their due. They have no power to leave unless another adult intervenes. If their parent is spectacularly unbothered about protecting them, the other adults around might not have an interest in intervening, instead seeing it as carte blanche to step in and abuse the children further.

What I do think should happen is that parents should be allocated an independent advisor who they feel is on "their side" (of course it's not about sides, but families often feel it is) who can help them work with children's services and understand where they are coming from as far as is possible. I do think that a lot of parents are baffled and terrified by the involvement of children's services and tend to react either defensively and aggressively - because that is the only tool they have to deal with what they perceive as a threat - or panicking, running away, hiding, ignoring. If you have not experienced children's services involvement it is very very difficult to imagine, but let me tell you, suddenly realising that somebody has the power to take your children away, having them interested in you feels like watching your child run into a road. We cannot and should not expect parents to react in a calm and rational way, because it activates all of those fight or flight, mother bear, protect my babies instincts, (even if they were not there when their new partner or their dealer was abusing their child, the threat of losing a child is often more base and primal) and this instinctive response is often totally opposite to what a social worker wants to see.

Of course this is expensive and won't happen any time soon. But I think it would reduce the need for adoption and help to ensure that when it happens it really is the best outcome for the children. And overall, I agree with the OP. It is the best thing in a lot of cases. Perhaps it could be handled better, but I really think children's services are doing the absolute best they can with the caseload, staffing and budgets that they have: Too much, not enough, not enough.

BertieBotts · 03/02/2015 17:53

Something I think is an absolute travesty is the loss of funding for sure start centres. Right there was an absolutely brilliant source of support and early intervention. I am convinced that long term they would have reduced the burden on children's services and helped parents to keep their children, especially combined with some kind of follow on attached to schools, and community youth centres/clubs. But no, services were cut because too many middle class parents used them, and they were expensive and seen as superfluous. I could weep, honestly. They were brilliant BECAUSE anybody could use them. You can't make a "special parenting support service only for poor people", FFS. Talk about ghettoising.

BertieBotts · 03/02/2015 18:01

I would say I think that perpetrators of DV where there are children involved (if not in all cases) should be arrested and imprisoned for the rest of their children's lives so that they cannot harm them.

But sadly that would not solve the problem, because often DV victims tend to choose subsequent abusive relationships.

But we absolutely need more to be done about DV and not this ridiculous situation we have now where people throw their hands up and say they can't prosecute and women still have to flee to refuges, refuges which are running out of space and being denied funding and asked to give beds to men escaping DV (who only very rarely have children with them, unlike women, where the majority of abuse victims are fleeing with children.)

Police should be allowed to join up the dots and act accordingly. The most dangerous adult to have around children, statistically, is a stepfather or mum's boyfriend. In fact over all ages and sexes, statistically the person anybody is most likely to be raped by is their stepfather, or an unmarried man in the position of a stepfather. Really fucking shocking ridiculous stuff and yet there is no system to protect children except to have them adopted.

tiggytape · 03/02/2015 18:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FreudiansSlipper · 03/02/2015 18:04

BertieBotts great posts

it is shocking the amount of abuse that goes on and the little support for those that are suffering

Iwasinamandbunit · 03/02/2015 18:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SoonToBeSix · 03/02/2015 18:22

Op you are missing the point . The parents are not given multiple chances to keep their child. Rather the child is given multiple chances to stay with their birth parents. Even in homes with mild to moderate neglect children can still do better than in a " perfect" adopted home. Attachment disorder is far more damaging than not always having clean clothes, baths , a healthy diet etc.

Chunderella · 03/02/2015 18:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

morethanpotatoprints · 03/02/2015 18:43

No, we should not have forced adoptions every case should be treated individually and if the parents can't cope then they need help.
Adoption is brilliant and of course if it comes down to the parents refusing and ss stepping in to take the child away it is obviously in the child's interest to be adopted.
A blanket law allowing forced adoption is not the way forward.
My biggest concern would be continuity of standard from ss and some being a bit quick to use the forced adoption card.

MoanCollins · 03/02/2015 18:47

What is the alternative? Long term fostering? Never allowing children to have a real proper family again? Allowing abusive parents to keep a legal say in their children's future? For them never to be free of an abusive family.

Narnia72 · 03/02/2015 18:55

Very difficult and emotional subject for me. my niece (8 months) has been the subject of a child protection order since my SIL went for a booking in appointment and disclosed her long standing mental health issue (bipolar effective disorder). My SIL spent her whole pregnancy under the SS microscope as she is a single parent. When she gave birth she wasn't allowed to be on her own with the baby, despite the fact that she'd engaged with ss, and worked on parenting classes etc with their help, and has never, ever shown her daughter any sort of physical or emotional harm. When they were discharged from hospital she went straight to a mother and baby unit, and,although she did a brilliant job in competently caring for her baby and showing consistent love and affection to her, her consultant psychiatrist advised that she needed more support and needed to be assessed in a specialist mother and baby unit, where you care for the child yourself but under 24 hour supervision via CCTV. SS refused to pay, the psychiatric team refused to pay. It went to court, SS convinced the judge it wasn't benefical (cost c £24k) and so baby was taken into care. SIL carried on contact 3 times a week as allowed, but there was no further help or support given to her to say this is what you need to improve to convince us you can successfully parent your baby. We live 30 seconds up the road, we and her MH team put together a comprehensive package of support, which involved daily visits, regular respite care from us and a place at our home for baby to go if SIL was showing signs of being ill. This was not deemed good enough. We were asked to take baby on an SGO but when they looked at how closely we supported SIL the SS decided that we would struggle to make the boundaries clear enough to ensure the baby grew up with us as her primary carers.

We'll never know if SIL could have coped. The sad thing was they never let her try - even for a week. She does not have a violent history, she has shown herself to be able to assess her mental health situation and know she's deteriorating and ask for help. Most crucially, a lot of the factors that were triggers for MH deterioration have been removed (family members, drugs, alcohol). A forensic psychiatrist who had never met her before did a 3 hour assessment of her and decided that, based on her previous history, which isn't great, she had no chance of maintaining her MH throughout the next 18 years.

I think they've treated her and her baby really harshly. They've made a prediction based on statistics, rather than her present situation, and have not allowed her to try and parent in the community with help and support. I appreciate that it is a risk, but not a current one. They've effectively said that she cannot parent a child effectively because of her MH history. So for every baby P case you get a case like this, where SS have removed because of what might happen. In court, it was repeatedly quoted in evidence about what a great mum she had shown herself to be, then in the next breath nit picked about a nappy she hadn't immediately put in the bin, or a feed she'd asked a nurse to do because she was tired.

If they genuinely felt that her MH and situation prevented her for effectively parenting then they should have removed baby at birth. If they thought she had a chance they should have let her try properly. At no point has it been explained to either her or us what they were looking for, what needed to happen to satisfy their concerns, and what route they were taking us down. Most importantly the baby has so far had 2 primary carers before her 1st birthday with another change to come. SIL is an intelligent woman and had always been open with SS that she would consider adoption if it was felt she couldn't parent. They were never open with her (possibly they're not allowed to be) but if they had said to her that they felt it wouldn't work, she wouldn't have put herself and her baby through such a stressful and heartbreaking first year. This is forced adoption and it's not pretty.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 03/02/2015 19:00

Bertie

what amazing posts thank you.

however on sure starts, whilst I am sure they are great and have done good, i am not convinced perpetrators want to use them really....a bit like robbers going to play round the police station.

tiggytape · 03/02/2015 19:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cazzmags · 03/02/2015 19:06

Moancolins - we are long term foster carers, we consider ourselves to be a 'real proper family' to the wonderful children we care for. Considering the appalling life they have all had as much as I love them I wish to God they had all been adopted at birth to have been spared the wickedness they were subjected to with their birth families. Long term fostering is a good option for some of these children who come out of 'supported families' too old and damaged to be adopted.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 03/02/2015 19:09

But we absolutely need more to be done about DV

Dv is an immensely tricky area and one that is notoriously frustrating for police...they get statements etc take statements put work in and the woman then drops charges....
Not saying the woman is at fault at all...its just very difficult.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 03/02/2015 19:12

But no, services were cut because too many middle class parents used them

I wonder when we will all realise that family problems transcend class.

RaisingSteam · 03/02/2015 19:12

I haven't managed to RTFT but earlier on someone said the outcomes weren't always great for children fostered or adopted and it wasn't a panacea.

This is sadly true but not quite the full picture. The outcomes are hopefully better than if those children had stayed in a badly dysfunctional birth family, but you can't wave a wand and remove the effect of that early abuse/neglect and the trauma of changes of carer. Adoption is a compromise option.

The impact of government cuts on all sides of this from support to vulnerable parents to fostering and post adoption support is a whole other problem. You feel you can't trust any decision hasn't been made with money in mind.

betweenmarchandmay · 03/02/2015 19:15

We looked into adoption in 2012. I emerged amazed anybody actually goes through with it. It frightened the living day lights out of me.

morethanpotatoprints · 03/02/2015 19:15

tiggy

Yes, they are forced to give up children for the sake of the child, this has always been the case. The children have then been adopted.
Imo nothing needs to change here, if laws allow forced adoption per se then we can never be sure that ss won't make mistakes.

crackerjack00 · 03/02/2015 19:53

Even in homes with mild to moderate neglect children can still do better than in a " perfect" adopted home. Attachment disorder is far more damaging than not always having clean clothes, baths , a healthy diet etc.

Two points.

No child is removed from birth parents through 'not always having clean cloths, baths a healthy diet etc'. That is totally underplaying what the benchmark for what abuse/neglect is.

Attachment disorder is often caused by poor parenting by the birth parents. Not purely by removing the child.

It is a complex topic and shouldn't be treated simplistically.

CerealMom · 03/02/2015 20:00

I think some people are never in a position/should never become a parent;

and it doesn't matter how much intervention/help they have, they will never be a 'fit' parent.

Before you jump in and call me hard - my DM fostered for 25+ years. I was 5 when she started. DM originally started long term fostering older 'hard to handle' teens. As the years went on, the kids got younger and the placements shorter. Back in those days the placements were to 18 usually these were extended to 19yrs old (becauses the kids were thought unable to look after themselves properly and SS had more money to help them).

All of these kids were damaged both by their parents and by the SS processes. So I am very jaded when I hear about interventions/sure start centres/parenting courses etc etc etc...

Unless you spend time around these kids, you can have very little idea what it is really like for them. The conflict/fierce loyalty they show their crap parent and struggles they have 'fitting in' to a 'normal' family. The lack of education they have had (parent doesn't value education, multiple foster/care home placements) it has so many knock on effects. The stories they eventually tell you, or give the social worker permission to tell you.

Of all my foster sisters (we had girls till I left for uni) we're still in contact with - and there are a fair few, all, all of them are struggling. Both financially (lack of education/inability to cope with a structure of work) and with their children. Their relationships are chaotic, some have had their children removed, others have lost their kids when their kids are old enough to ask SS to relocate them. Terrible, awful cycle.

It's all so fnucking sad.

Should some kids be removed earlier - yes
Should more permanent long term, stable foster placeless be available - of course. Are you going to offer?
Should the processes enabling adoption be reviewed - yes
Should the training, recruitment and monitoring of soc workers be reviewed - of course. Are you willing to pay more tax to do this? Ask govm't to ring fence funds?

At what point do we intervene? I do have a great deal of sympathy for soc workers whose hands are tied by current legislation/practises. Lack of value of their job and profession. How do they unload of an evening? All the sh1t they must see on a day to day basis and most of it won't meet the bar for any intervention at all.

I could start an epic rant about the lack of support to adoptees of children with multiple needs - an SS wonder why there is a reluctance for people coming forward to adopt these kids!

There was an an insightful programme on radio 4 a few years ago about survivors. The adopted siblings of children who been abused and murdered by their parents. All the problems the survivors had that I'd never thought about before. Eating disorders because the child had been starved to the point where their eating/fullness mechanism had been damaged. The adopted parent could never leave them at a birthday party unattended or they would eat to the point of vomiting.

So yes, early and more intervention is needed.

Swipe left for the next trending thread