To think that forced adoption is the best thing for many children

[ReallyTired]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31089412

Clearly taking a child into care or complusory adoption should be a last restort. However I don't think that there is a fundermental right to be a parent. There is a fundermental right for a child to have a decent childhood. Parents should not be numerous chances to get parenting right. Baby P is a prime example of a baby who should have been taken into care at birth.

I feel the secrecy of the family courts is an issue. In many cases there are strong reasons why someone should never be allowed to have care of a child. We need a way that there can be an appeals proceedure that puts the right of the child first.

I think OP was rather brave starting this thread tbh, given how quickly they've become train wrecks in the past. Not exactly helped by me when I'm there to be fair, given my tendency to post in anger rather than take a break.

Going back to this bit of the OP - We need a way that there can be an appeals proceedure that puts the right of the child first

Now there's a complicated issue! Appeals are necessary and completely right as a legal principle, however much you might wish a specific person would not appeal, but appeals against adoption orders are horrendously stressful for adopting parents. I know many adoptive parents would like that particular right to ask for permission to appeal monthsd after placement, to be legally abolished, and go back to the situation pre-2005 in some ways. I'm not sure where I stand, but I do know we have a problem.

Another problem is adoption teams linking children to prospective parents at legally difficult time creating a lot of stress and worry and confusion for prospective parents. I groan inwardly when I see posts along the lines of 'shown details of LO and fallen in love, they're going to court for Placement Order in 3 weeks'. I've seen too many situations where that great (not) idea has fallen apart. PO not granted, hearing delayed for a month, then delayed again for 2 months, and the poor prosective parent/s who fell in love with this little one are left in a horrible and painful limbo. Alternately, linking is going on with an appeal against a PO being a certainty and going to cause problems etc etc. Spero this is your area, what's your opinion on the current appeals procedures?

I like and respect you too tartan

If anyone is interested, here is the CPR explanation about appeals.
www.childprotectionresource.org.uk/category/appeals-and-discharge-of-order/

In my view, the whole appeal system just stinks. It offers an illusion of hope to desperate parents but frankly, once a final care order is made in 99% of cases that is in reality the end of the line for the parents because they couldn't turn it around in time.

But the prospect of appealing is dangled in front of them, often by the 'social workers are all evil' brigade. They don't get any legal aid, there seem to be increasing numbers of unscrupulous people who will offer to 'help'.

In my whole career I have had just one case where I succeeded getting permission to appeal against an adoption because my client had changed her circumstances. But the judge rejected the appeal because she hadn't seen the children for nearly two years and they were settled with the prospective adopters.

But my client got her heart broken all over again and the adopters went through six months of hell as our appeal limped through the system, not knowing if they were going to be able to keep the children who had been living with them for so long.

I don't think the present system serves anyone's interests. But, as the recent decision of HHJ Dobbs in Liverpool shows, sometimes appeals are absolutely necessary.

If you haven't had the pleasure of the lovely Judge Dodds then this is toe curling reading.
www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2015/27.html

Toe curling indeed

Spero I have messaged you. Thanks.

Removing. Children can do more damage than good at times. We see and read so often how SS have got it wrong but parents are not allowed to question them.

I am an adult who was removed as a child. I've seen my files the reason for removal was total crap, Infact i was awarded compensation which my carer was to hold till I was old enough... By the time I new about this money only a pittance of what was award was left as she had frittered it away, giving her family loans, buying cars that broke down in weeks needing costly repairs, her holidays with her partner while I was sent to a friends house.

I'm now an adult with anxiety, abandonment issues and trust issues. As a teenager I was reckless with alcohol and sex, I lost my virginity extremely Young to adults much older. I suffered emotional abuse from my carers at the time new fiancé after finding her husband dead when I was 8.

Social services failed me as a child and as a teenager by taking me away they admitted that, but that won't "fix" me or change what I lived with.

I remember being 10 and hearing my carer shouting that she would send me back into care if I didn't like her partner, how I had ruined her life by existing.

I moved out at 14years of age and never returned.

Yes I'm now married and have my own children and I'm not an abuser, but do I trust social services? Not at all! I wouldn't trust them with a goldfish.

Chatty, this may be cold comfort to you but things have honestly moved on a lot in the last 20 years, and the compensation issue couldn't and wouldn't happen now.

I think most posters would be shocked at how bad a child's home life can be and SS not take a child into care - it really is an option of last resort

Ehric

They might of however im only in my 20's so it was not that long ago this was happening to me

chatty I am aghast that such money would not have been ring fenced for you and has been allowed to be frittered away....can you not get it back, and sue the fool who let your career have it!

From the paperwork it was put into an account that my carer could sign for to get money out under certain circumstances for me to be able to spend, stuff like extras that I didn't need but where wants and the carer would not be able to afford, it was to be for driving lessons and a car come 17 etc however I only found out about this money at 18 by which point tge actual account had been shut down due to being empty and my carer gave me just over £1,000 via purchasing an item for me.

It would be my word vs the carers word about why the money was withdrawn and whom for.

I have since gone nc with the carer.

Chatty,
Has any criminal action been taken against your "carer" for stealing money that was in trust for you? Your "carer" should be sent to prison. I was defrauded of 2k and the criminal had recently been sentenced to 16 weeks in jail. I feel that social services should have ensured that a proper trust was set up for you.

yes but you were a child...

• I feel that social services should have ensured that a proper trust was set up for you

yes!

You dont give child money via career and have such loose terms saying they can spend it on childs needs.

There needs to be receipts and proof etc.

For various reasons my son has a small trust fund. It requires 4 signatures to get any money out. Every penny that is spent has to be accounted for with receipts. I don't understand why SS did not set up a proper trust.

A support worker in a community living house has to write down every penny spent and what on.

Now...there is still masses of room for fraud here, but it still has to accounted for...very different with a vulnerable adult who can say " actually, my TV is not that one that was paid for....that went to career mine was the cheaper version" etc. however chatty you can dispute what money was spent on and also how you were treated.

who cant say

And while it's very easy to feel sorry for the parents who are not adequate parents and who need help to get back on track, how many of us would associate with parents like that when it came to our own children? send our children there for a play date? sleepover?
even if they'd had intervention and help from ss would you still want your child going round there?

Actually, you probably do and will probably never know.

I've name changed for this, but am a regular poster.

When I was pregnant with DD, I had very severe antenatal depression - combo of having to reduce meds, serious HG, and my employer severely bullying me and then trying to fire me because I was pregnant. I spent most of my pregnancy throwing up and battling a court case against them.

Due to the depression, both SS and child protection were called in - case conferences, home visits, care plans before the birth and SS visited once a week for the first year after DD was born. They were amazing.

Child Protection were beyond awful - the letters they sent as follow-up were full of blatant lies, appalling inaccuracies (and the grammar/spelling was shameful). Even the social worker was appalled at all the things they got wrong - they were there at the meetings - and urged me to make a complaint. Fortunately we were taken off CPs books - but terrifying that they were making the claims there were, and I refused to see them again without another professional present.

They never suggested taking DD away, but if I hadn't had DH, I imagine that they might well have seriously considered it. They were very concerned that I didn't have a family support network other than DH.

DH and I are a normal professional couple, higher rate taxpayers, lovely home, Oxbridge degrees etc - not the kind of people you would think would have Child Protection sitting on the sofa or SS round every week for over a year.

I can assure you that if our children were friends, you wouldn't think twice about play dates and sleepovers at our house or leaving your child alone with me.

Given my experiences - especially those with child protection - I'm a bit wary of being black & white on this issue. I talked about it with SS and they said that they always tried to keep the child with the parents and put in as much support as possible. I even think that a parent who has had issues in the past should be given another chance (unless it's serious violence).

For example, take a 19 year-old single mother with no support network who can't cope, has a breakdown or perhaps a drug problem or violent partner ultimately has a child removed.

10 years later, she's married to a nice chap with no dodgy history, there's no drug problems, no violence, and a nice stable home and plenty of support from family - she should imo be given every chance to bring up another child and SS should just stand by to support if necessary.

Narnia72 - that is a terrifying story about your SIL, and one that keeps me awake at night and makes me feel cold and sick, as I know that if I hadn't had DH, I would probably have been in that situation.

There are thousands of people out there with BPD or depression and they are just as capable of being great parents as anyone else. I admit that I do warn people who I know have BPD or other mental health conditions (even multiple common or garden depressive episodes) to be VERY careful about disclosing it when they are pregnant lest they end up under the scrutiny of SS or CP.

I've never forgiven my employer for what he did to me and the consequences that it could have had. I can't say much, but he will regret it for the rest of his life - took a few years, but I managed to get a few things about him exposed in the media and although he sadly didn't go to jail, the vast majority of people now look at him with the contempt and disgust he deserves and his career is finished.

SS do not automatically take away children if the parents are in a completely different situation to when a child was removed a long time ago. A lot depends on the reasons why a particular child was removed. Some circumstances are easier to change than others.

Due to the depression, both SS and child protection were called in

I don't understand this, do you mean police child protection? Because social services are child protection.

I even think that a parent who has had issues in the past should be given another chance (unless it's serious violence).

This is what happened with Baby P, Khyra Ishak, Heather West, Victoria Climbe and every other horrific child murder that we've ever heard about when parents were 'known to social services.'

Sometimes another chance works well, other times its a disaster. Glad its not me that needs to sort out one from the other.

There has to be a balance of risk.

I am surprised that people were referred to social services for depression. I was incredibly ill thirteen years ago. When I had dd, everyone was really supportive.