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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that forced adoption is the best thing for many children

225 replies

ReallyTired · 03/02/2015 12:28

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31089412

Clearly taking a child into care or complusory adoption should be a last restort. However I don't think that there is a fundermental right to be a parent. There is a fundermental right for a child to have a decent childhood. Parents should not be numerous chances to get parenting right. Baby P is a prime example of a baby who should have been taken into care at birth.

I feel the secrecy of the family courts is an issue. In many cases there are strong reasons why someone should never be allowed to have care of a child. We need a way that there can be an appeals proceedure that puts the right of the child first.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 03/02/2015 20:08

"Too many middle class parents" is a shorthand way of saying that the service was not meeting the needs of the intended users, which is what was said in the bumf, and translated into English means "not enough poor people came". This might have been true in some areas, but not in all - I saw them meeting the needs of intended users, middle class and working class. And of course middle class people need support too. Absolutely. But again this was not recognised when talking about "target groups" and the hand wringing over whether they were being used right.

No, I doubt that seriously abusive parents would use sure start centres, although there was one parent who had to be asked to stop coming to my local one because her children had been removed. I won't repeat the rumours that I heard about why, because I don't know if they were true. The point is that they help those parents who mean well but don't have a good base of their own childhood to draw on, or similar. They won't stop an abusive sadist from being an abusive sadist, but they do wonderful things in the way of encouraging families to eat fruit and veg, helping parents find nursery placements when they struggle, actively teaching/encouraging parents as to how to play with or speak to their children. It might be hard to imagine from a nice, happy, secure childhood type bubble but some parents literally don't know that they should speak to a child who can't yet talk back, or that there is any way to play with a child apart from by putting them in front of the TV or giving them loud, flashy toys and letting them get on with it, or what appropriate developmental expectations are for behaviour.

And then the more universal stuff - company and a cup of tea and a friendly face who knows you by name and asks how you are doing. Somebody who might notice that you didn't turn up to a regular meeting and ask someone to send you a quick text to check you're OK.

Spero · 03/02/2015 20:09

If anyone is around near King's Cross on 1st June, I am one of the organisers of a multi disciplinary conference discussing the child protection system. We would like people from all different backgrounds/interests to come.

transparencyproject.org.uk/proposed-multi-disciplinary-conference-1st-june-2015/

MoanCollins · 03/02/2015 20:24

Well that's what I meant Cazz. I'm sure long term foster carers consider themselves real parents but it must it must stop the children from feeling totally secure. Long term isn't forever after all.

I'm wondering what they do in Europe instead. Are there perhaps more willing adoptions because of social stigma or because the state offers less support to parents?

Because it's great that we support families in hard times financially and with housing. But the flip side to that is that there are some people who will hang on to kids they don't want or care about because they're little walking money bags and they want to hang on to them for the financial benefit so have to be forced to give them up? Maybe forced adoption is the price we pay for helping the rest of the families who aren't like that? I tend to think it's possibly a worthwhile price to pay.

BertieBotts · 03/02/2015 20:26

Totally agree CerealMum. I don't think Sure Start will solve those kinds of cases sadly. And it's shocking that fostered children are expected to fend for themselves at 19, just how does anyone think that is okay :( I worked with a woman who lived in a "halfway house" for care leavers. Some of her housemates abused her position to steal items from the shop that we worked in. She very nearly lost her job over it - something which was completely out of her control. Luckily, the manager was understanding of her position, but many wouldn't have been.

It's true that the experience of being in care itself and being separated is of course traumatic. That's why SS would not be remotely interested in the situation mentioned above where the children are in a messy house. It's just absolutely nothing compared to the horrendous abuses, most of which we could not imagine.

DS' half brother was removed from his mother and adopted. I wish we had looked into being considered, although I doubt we would have been approved in time, with my own history of needing support and I don't know that DH would have agreed anyway. His sister adopted four children and he is put off for life because of the issues he saw crop up - again because of lack of support from SS. I know the budget is not there, it's an unsolvable issue.

The other problem is that our (collective) knowledge about attachment etc is increasing far more quickly than we can see results. This makes it difficult to justify changes to the system to the people in charge. It's difficult to implement new policy when the system is clogged not only with the normal difficulties present with adoption, abuse and neglect but the problems caused by the failings of an imperfect system. (And no system, anywhere, is perfect. I think the UK system is actually one of the better ones, TBH, which is depressing.)

rumbleinthrjungle · 03/02/2015 20:27

It's incredibly complex. I've seen a great deal of support poured into families, some of whom could benefit from it and did and were desperate for the help. Others had needs themselves that went on, and on and on, often they were themselves abused children in adult bodies, and eventually supporting them had to be balanced with what the children were still experiencing for months or years while their parents were signed up for one more parenting course.

Of the children I've seen who had to be removed from their families, some were children I worried about for days before and during holidays because everything that could be done was being done, but I was afraid when I knew that someone outside the family wasn't going to see the child and know they were ok that day. One child, horribly, was seriously hurt during this 'waiting and evidence gathering' stage. But in balance to that - being in care is not a good thing for children, the evidence is overwhelming, (the system, not foster parents), and children carrying immense emotional trauma get shockingly little care or input, there is very little comprehension of the issues these children carry never mind support for them. Sometimes they are not removed to something 'better'. The other thing I've always been painfully aware of - of those children, I think only one was glad it happened and saw it as an escape. Of the others - I can think of several who I don't believe will thank anyone involved for being taken from their family, and will probably return straight back to them the moment they are old enough and grow up bitter about having been 'stolen' by the LA and a lot of do gooders.

One thing that might help long term is more options around 'open' adoptions, where the child isn't able to live with their family or the family to provide care or legal decisions for the child, but the child can have some ongoing participation with their parents, siblings, wider family, and those relationships valued the way that ongoing contact with a NRP is legally valued, even if has to be under close supervision and in a contact centre. It is beyond hard to do, is hard on adoptive parents, and would certainly not be a possibility for every child, the potential for negative influence on the child and the child's loyalties or affections being divided are only some of the tip of the ice berg. But those issues can be there anyway, and I wonder if for some children to have help to deal with these issues openly would make it less of a last ditch decision to permanently remove a child, or such an immense loss.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 03/02/2015 20:31

CerealMom Tue 03-Feb-15 20:00:29

So sad, so very very sad and these children don't get a second chance childhood.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 03/02/2015 20:35
  • the evidence is overwhelming, (the system, not foster parents), and children carrying immense emotional trauma get shockingly little care or input, there is very little comprehension of the issues these children carry never mind support for them. Sometimes they are not removed to something 'better'

After all the recent revelations from the past, and the present with the rotheram scandals and so on, its amazed me that there isn't more focus on these homes right now which I believe were taken over by that security company who ran Olympics security? There was a murmur in the press about the safety of these places..and that was....it.

BertieBotts · 03/02/2015 20:38

rumble Especially since the advent of social media and how easy it is for a child to find their birth family from about the age of 10 or 11 when they can use a computer. At this age they have no comprehension of what the consequences might be, they are just thinking romantically of the family they have lost. Yes, it might be better to have that openness. However it would have to be looked at as an individual case. Because of the social media problem, children are now usually placed a significant distance away from their birth families, which is more upheaval and would make contact difficult. I think it would be hard to tell in advance whether contact would be beneficial or harmful and as such impossible to know whether to place a child nearby (to enable contact, keep local links) or far away (to make rash teenager initiated contact difficult).

mytartanscarf · 03/02/2015 20:41

Isn't it possible that prospective parents would be reluctant to adopt on those terms? I don't think I'd like it.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 03/02/2015 20:41

Police should be allowed to join up the dots and act accordingly. The most dangerous adult to have around children, statistically, is a stepfather or mum's boyfriend. In fact over all ages and sexes, statistically the person anybody is most likely to be raped by is their stepfather, or an unmarried man in the position of a stepfather. Really fucking shocking ridiculous stuff and yet there is no system to protect children except to have them adopted.

This is shocking. I didn't know it was a known thing...

MrsDeVere · 03/02/2015 20:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BertieBotts · 03/02/2015 20:48

Knitted, like a lot of things, if one was to start looking into any of it, it's like a pandora's box.

The truth is we can't actually help or support even a tiny fraction of the children who are, or should be, in the care system.

We can't uncover even a small proportion of the abuse, historical or current. We can't prevent or stop relationship abuse.

All of it is still far too great. And this is a country where it is not the norm or accepted generally.

Trying to think about it too much would just drive a person to despair. We can only do so much, and it is nowhere near enough. Just keep doing what you can as an individual, be good to your own children, be vigilant about your relationships, and be kind to everybody you come across, because you have no idea what battles they are fighting or have fought in their lifetimes (bastardised quote there, can't remember the original author).

OurMiracle1106 · 03/02/2015 20:54

I agree sometimes it is what is best for the Child. I say this as a birth parent whose child has been adopted. This however does not make it any less painful or emotionally crippling.

Parents do deserve a chance and just because I wasn't in a good mental state back when my son was taken doesn't mean I am in that same place now. I asked social services repeatedly for help and got none. Maybe if when I was begging for help they had of provided the support I needed then my child would still be with me.

The courts need to stay closed. Names etc should never be disclosed as in my experience people judge parents who have had a child adopted very harshly.

I have worked hard and done many hours of counselling to be where I am now.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 03/02/2015 20:54

Yes I agree Bertie But I also think there is far too much emphasis on giving the parents a chance...

But I do not trust the care home system either.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 03/02/2015 20:57

Maybe if when I was begging for help they had of provided the support I needed then my child would still be with me.

My own experience of SS has been appalling, utterly shocking and appalling.

Its a very strange organization and of course they do many great things when all we hear about are the disasters...

But my experience was shocking.

OurMiracle1106 · 03/02/2015 20:57

How can you tell if someone is going to be a good or bad parent without giving them a chance?

OurMiracle1106 · 03/02/2015 21:00

Knitted. I agree they do amazing work but I feel in a number of cases and especially my own if when I begged for help they had helped me I would have been able to cope.

They can say when I moved I should have contacted my local social services because they work differently all they like. But when you've been made to feel a waste of time and ignored despite asking for help, by the same people (all be it a different part of the country) you aren't likely to access it.

mytartanscarf · 03/02/2015 21:00

The problem is that if 'giving them a chance' ultimately leads to a traumatised child, that cannot be right.

OurMiracle1106 · 03/02/2015 21:06

But does that mean social services should take every child because no one I'd guaranteed to be a good parent when that child is born are they? And no one is guaranteed to be a bad parent either.

Do we look at risk factors. And if so what are they? And then assess from there.

FreudiansSlipper · 03/02/2015 21:06

what about the impact of taking a child away

just because the child may go to a more stable home that does not make everything right a child will then (maybe) grieve for their parent/s and family they have known it can be unbelievably devastating for a child

sadly this is the only option at times but support to make change has to come first when possible

ss are underfunded and many many cases badly managed which makes families very fearful to ask for more help which should not be the case at all

BertieBotts · 03/02/2015 21:09

Anyone who thinks our care system is bad, BTW, look at this. It looks like a bed of fucking roses in comparison :(

wearelumos.org/the-problem

The system is not fit for purpose, but nothing is, short of a magic wand. How can you heal a traumatised child? You can't. No amount of love and consistency of care will put that back together.

mytartanscarf · 03/02/2015 21:10

I think criminal convictions, drug abuse and past neglect are clear enough miracle

KnittedJimmyChoos · 03/02/2015 21:11

I don't know what your circs were our miracle, but in these discussions I am usually thinking of a Baby P scenario...or where a parent keeps doing bad things and promises to do a course and do good things, but then relapses.

  • that does not make everything right a child will then (maybe) grieve for their parent/s and family they have known it can be unbelievably devastating for a child

Indeed, perversely separation anxiety can be horrendous even where parent is not capable or loving to child. Also depending on age and awareness of child, those whose parents who are vulnerable for whatever reason, chlld feels responsible for them and the adult in the relationship.

MrsDeVere · 03/02/2015 21:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FreudiansSlipper · 03/02/2015 21:14

traumatised children can heal

takes time, lots of love, understanding and patience and a lot of soul searching but some get there in the end or near enough to live a happy life