to think the NHS is a bit crap

[eyebags63]

And because it is treated almost as a kind of religion nobody is allowed to say anything negative about it at all. And actually just because it is "free" (a mere 110bn a year) doesn't mean we should be eternally grateful for bad treatment.

My experiences are of elderly relatives being mistreated in hospital, non-existent services in some areas, screw-ups, buck passing, treatment delays, being treated as a number with no dignity or privacy, a significant number of staff that appear not to care one little bit. I could go on.

In other health systems people can get referred and treated within days or weeks. Here we accept that waiting for months on end in pain is normal. We accept exhausted staff, lack of access, dirty hospitals, ambulances queuing outside hospitals and restricted treatment resources.

Yes it is "free at the point of use", but isn't that half of the problem? Walk into any GP surgery or A&E and you can witness so many abuses of the system. On the other hand genuine patients are often seem to be treated as a nuisance.

I'm not saying the NHS should be scrapped but surely it is about time we at least looked at different ways of doing things.

That is £50,000 after years more in university/medical school than most people have to do. And carrying far more responsibility than most people have at work.

Not that I don't think that some doctors do very nicely, mind.

BubbleGirl01 - I'm very sorry for your loss & for your experience of the NHS

OP - YA (sort of) BU, but I think experiences differ greatly depending on the hospital.

I have a disabled DD with severe and complex medical problems, to the point where our local hospital has just classified us as 'super users', and in my experience the NHS have been nothing short of fantastic. I can say categorically that my DD would not be alive today if it wasn't for the NHS.

Yes, the out-patient service of some hospitals is shockingly bad & you need to plan at least 3 weeks in advance to try and see a GP, but when we've really needed urgent care then the NHS has always been excellent.

Working 7 hour days for £50k a year is ample reward for the extra years at University. That would be practically unheard of in the private sector. Probably doesn't exist..

Having spent time living in the States I am very grateful for our NHS. I have suffered a traumatic birth and experienced very poor treatment in hospital however that doesn't change my view.

Moan - what on earth are you talking about? Do you seriously think doctors earn less in the private sector?

Moancollins: don't be daft.
Of course people in the private sector can earn £50k working 7 hours per day.

People abuse the system. A&E for a broken toe ( nothing can really be dome) A&E for the flu ( go home, you'll give it to everyone)
A&E for tripping over when drunk, A&E because no suitable appointment at the Docs.
Op, of course you feel your not getting a great service, that's because the poor staff are over worked by the idiots who just shouldn't be in hospital.
My GP is at our surgery at 7.00am every day for early appointments. I had to see her for something last week, I was very happy to be offered the 7am slot. She actually told me she was going to stop the early appointments, because most people didn't want them that early...why????
Money is wasted in hospitals, agency staff are paid a premium, if nurses and care staff were paid better maybe more people would want to enter the profession, more trained staff would stay with the NHS, so less money on agency staff.
Management is another expensive area. I know a senior hospital manager, (paid well over 6 figures....by an agency)!!!!! Madness
We are lucky in so many ways, I have had 4 children in NHS hospitals, and free prescriptions for my children.
I think A&E is being totally abused, I think people are less stoic & want medical advice for every little thing.
Maybe there should be a small charge for things £5.00 missed appointment (3 strikes and you are out)
£10.00 for time wasters..... I don't really know what the answer is, but overall we are fortunate, we have a fall back the NHS is there for everyone.......but please make sure you are really sick.

Have had a lot of contact with the NHS in the last two years- one- could -have been -major- but- wasn't for me, one minor op, elderly MIL with dementia who died in our local hospital last year, elderly neighbour had a major stroke . I have nothing but praise for everyone with whom we came into contact.I saw consutant within 2 weeks , waited a further month for a further check on the one- that- could- have been (they were fairly certain it wasn't ), which was a bit nerve -wracking but bearable (shortage of appropriate staff). Had it turned out to be ominous I can't imagine what private treatment would have cost) I waited well under the 18 weeks for the op,(had I paid it would have been £5000-day case ). MIL and neighbour were treated with compassion and dignity .
My DD2 is a midwife in the NHS (different area). Huge teaching hospital . The pressure/stress are horrendous , but they strive always to treat patients well and not to let it show. I am so very proud of her .
I accept that its not perfect and some people have bad experiences (haven't read full thread) but I'm fed up of people knocking something we are so lucky to have . A friend's very well paid brother in the USA has put all of a recent very substantial inheritance into (more) private health care as they ''are terrified' of growing older and needing treatment ther"' .She (a pharmacist) hasn't felt a similar need here .
I pray the next government will not privatise and will put money into staffing levels (not admin/management)

And I agree with chickydoo re missed appointments Our hospital posts the numbers-they are shocking .
On the numerous occasions I have attended A and E with said MIL (prone to falls) I have been amazed at the number of drunks too . And so impressed with the way staff (usually the experienced Sisters not the junior doctors) dealt with them

My DH is a few months off being a fully qualified Architect - he's worked as Part II for almost 10 years so he has the workload of a qualified Architect. Once he is qualified his salary will only go up a bit to £40,000 if he's lucky, this is for a well known practice in London and offices elsewhere which he is expected to split his time between, so costs a lot in travel. A good day is 9-7, but not infrequently he's there until 9pm. Last week he was there until 1am and they paid for a cab home. It takes at least 7 years to become an Architect, which is comparative to a Doctor, so I would say £50,000 is not bad for 7hr days. On the other hand, I think there's a huge problem with this 'long hours' culture.

Yanbu. It's a joke I have to for private yet still be at the mercy of NHS for GP and emergencies. I'd rather pay more and have a better system where I get what I'm paying for. I couldn't live without the security of private health care. I've had excellent treatment within days of initial visit to GP who always gets a face on when I want referring to the private hospital.

The NHS is a ridiculous waste of money, poorly managed, abused and just doesn't give quality care any more. Every time I've been in nhs hospital it's been bloody filthy too. No wonder you come out with more problems than you went in with.

Yabu

I reiterate other peoples' points on this thread. I think the NHS and staff doing an amazing job with the resources it has. It does run like a well-oiled machine (mostly) and is more efficient and equitable than any other health system in the world.

Read this article comparing the NHS to the American health system, from an American expat's point of view:
uk.businessinsider.com/an-american-uses-britain-nhs-2015-1

I say "the NHS is amazing" as someone who recently waited for 7 hours in A&E for treatment for a serious problem (not life-threatening though). I saw how over-stretched the staff were due to excess winter demand. It is not the NHS' fault when lots of people get ill at once. This kind of demand would be difficult for any health service to manage. In the end, I got all the treatment I needed (not rationed) and I recovered fairly quickly. If I lived in another country I think I would have faced a different outcome.

I think the general public need to take more responsibility for efficient use of scarce NHS resources:

• reduce the numbers of people going to A&E who could see their GP instead
• increase self-care (using pharmacies, self-help groups, community orgs etc)
• educate children and young people early on proper use of NHS services
• early intervention to improve people's lifestyles particularly healthy eating and mental health as diabetes and depression account for a large proportion of the total NHS budget
• invest in social care for older people to prevent "bed blocking"

This would relieve the pressure on our hard working doctors and nurses.

I don't think the OP is BU. I also get annoyed when people shut down any criticism of the NHS because 'we're lucky to have it, you could live in the US' or 'it's free so don't moan'. As the OP says, it's not free and 'it could be worse' is not a good reason to accept bad service.

The NHS is not perfect and it will only get better if we fix some of its deep rooted problems. If we're not allowed to identify and talk about those problems it will get worse and worse until the Tories can sell it off without the public outrage there ought to be.

I could post my anecdotes about how an NHS doctor nearly killed me when I was 10 by misdiagnosing my type 1 diabetes, with all classic symptoms, as constipation. And then how NHS doctors saved me when I went into a diabetic coma and was very lucky to make it out. An NHS doctor made a mistake that killed my nan, but when she was dying in hospital the NHS staff were bloody amazing. These isolated incidents don't matter in the grand scheme of things, and I'm not going to look at the NHS through rose-tinted glasses because of them.

Can people stop comparing the NHS to the American system?
No one has said we should have an American system.

Anything would look good compared to something so shockingly shite, its a crap point to make.

Agency staff are not paid a premium, they don't have sick pay, mat pay, hol pay, they need someone to do the admin (accounts), they have there own insurance, they also have to pay for there own training..
Oh and they don't have the generous pension..

I think the NHS is fantastic. Yes it's not perfect & like anything it has good & bad areas & my family & I have experienced both outstanding & really poor care. But I've experienced shockingly bad practise in private care too (which had seriously long term consequences). The fundamental issue is that any healthcare system is run by people! & they are good & bad, exceptional & poor & make mistakes from time to time. So unless we want to be treated by robots (not an idea I fancy!) I think the NHS is absolutely something to hang on to & be in the main proud of.

I'm not talking about doctors in the private sector, I'm talking about the private sector in general. Anywhere I worked if someone drew a salary of £50,000 and clocked in at 9am and clocked out at 4.30pm they wouldn't last 3 months.

France : MUCH higher taxes to pay for their health care.
Italy : theoretically much higher taxes but actually going broke.
Malta : ditto
Germany : MUCH higher taxes.

Please : do not just moan about the NHS without saying which system does it better

God if the NHS is the best thing in the country we are screwed. All those billions for theb18th best hs in the world.

God if the NHS is the best thing in the country we are screwed.
Who has said that, other than you?

MrsDeVere
Agency staff are not paid a premium. Agencies are paid a premium.
THe registrar interviewed on Radio 4 this evening said he earns a good chunk more when doing locum work - as he does not get holiday or sick pay for that work.

moan read that post again! that 7 hour day was that GPs HALF DAY. A full day for GP is significantly more that.

I can't believe I've read people are blaming GP wages and female GPs for some of the NHS problems.

I'm a GP. I earn significantly less than the figures quoted in this thread. The figures quoted are for GP partners who are business owners and are responsible for the employment of their staff from their Salaried GPs (which is what I am) to their cleaners. They have to pay for the building, insurance, etc etc. And to be honest if you read the latest GP news, the quoted figures in this thread for partners are completely wrong. One of my friends is a GP partner in wales and earns £70k. Still a lot of money but for the work that is involved in the specific running of a GP business it is way below average.

However I'm a salaried female GP. And earn far less than the Daily Fail and the idiots that read it by the sounds of it a lot of you on this thread like to think.

And as for the disgusting misogynistic 'part time female GPs are a problem'. No they are NOT. They work part time and therefore earn a part time wage just like females in other jobs do. Are those females blamed as the cause of problems in other sectors?

I've always worked full time. The brief period I worked part time I took the drop in wage that happens when you reduce hours. That is fine. However my hours officially were reduced but I was still working practically full time. My half day was a similar time frame because GP isn't a 9-5 job. I'm not complaining about that at all btw.

Oh and the previous poster who said we earn more than university lecturers even though they are more qualified!!! So rude. More qualified to so what? They have qualifications in their area and we do too. All specialities have to do post graduate examinations which result in plenty of letters after their names just as lecturers do. I have 20 letters after my name and I'm 'just a GP'.

The NHS is great but it's up shit creek right now.

I don't know what the answer is. I imagine it would be a very complicated answer.

But it's not 'reduce GP wages' because that would cause an even bigger recruitment crisis than there is at present. GPs work very hard (although there are bad examples just as there is in other professions too) and are highly trained and skilled at what they do. The wage should be appropriate for this.

Seriously put down the Daily Fail and form your own opinions on the correct information instead of listening to what those morons in power are telling you!!!!!!!!

Jeez I'm so offended people think we earn £ 50K for a 7 hour day. We don't. We just DONT.