to think the NHS is a bit crap

[eyebags63]

And because it is treated almost as a kind of religion nobody is allowed to say anything negative about it at all. And actually just because it is "free" (a mere 110bn a year) doesn't mean we should be eternally grateful for bad treatment.

My experiences are of elderly relatives being mistreated in hospital, non-existent services in some areas, screw-ups, buck passing, treatment delays, being treated as a number with no dignity or privacy, a significant number of staff that appear not to care one little bit. I could go on.

In other health systems people can get referred and treated within days or weeks. Here we accept that waiting for months on end in pain is normal. We accept exhausted staff, lack of access, dirty hospitals, ambulances queuing outside hospitals and restricted treatment resources.

Yes it is "free at the point of use", but isn't that half of the problem? Walk into any GP surgery or A&E and you can witness so many abuses of the system. On the other hand genuine patients are often seem to be treated as a nuisance.

I'm not saying the NHS should be scrapped but surely it is about time we at least looked at different ways of doing things.

Eyebags, I actually wasn't accusing you of not being very bright, it was directed at another ideologue on here. Also, I didn't suggest the Grauniad was a paragon of impartiality; it was easier than linking to the Commonwealth Fund's huge PDF though.

The GP salary summary can be seen in the Health and Social Care Information Centre's 'GP Earnings and Expenses 2012/13' report. The average will be higher now than it was at the time of that report.

Again, I don't understand how/why you assume you can assess the average GP's wages based up on, what? Your guesses of your own GP's salary? Based on...their shoes? Their car?

Insane workload?
Not my gp practise!
None of them work ft.
6/8 week wait for a blood test so you have to go to the nearest hospital...12 miles away. 2 bus rides.
4/6 week wait to book an appt with a chosen gp.
They will only home visit those who are terminally ill or disabled. I have seen some very very ill people in the waiting room who should not have been made to attend surgery.
No other choice in this village sadly.

Sorry, Younggirl; that was indecorous of me, and I take it back. I was annoyed because you initially saw the Graun link and didn't read it to see that it was a reference to the Commonwealth Fund. Which Eyebags then also went on to do!

"Another ideologue" huh?

Do you really think catty remarks like that do anything other than prove the OP's original point about hosing down criticism with ad hominem attacks?

I think we are lucky to have the NHS and we will miss it once it's gone.

Baddz, this problem is only going to get worse, too. There's a huge demographic hump coming in the GP workforce, with lots of young(ish) female GPs who are all going to be taking maternity leave, then coming back part-time simultaneously.

Also, more women are now graduating in medicine than men, and this will exacerbate the problem further. Filling training posts on a one-for-one basis is no longer enough, as the female Medics are considerably less likely to work full-time throughout their careers. Training them costs the same, but the 'pay-back' will take decades longer.

Socially, this is wonderful. Economically, it's shite!

Apology accepted. It is rather hard to take an argument citing the Guardian (even as a secondary source) seriously, particularly as you were berating the OP for being a "Daily Mail reader".

But you are an ideologue, Younggirl. All your arguments have been based on anecdote, 'gut feel' and principle. All fair enough; politicians build careers on less. But it's not impartial, evidence-based reasoning.

YANBU. It is more than a 'bit' crap IMHO.

My 2nd DD died at birth due to a lethal syndrome that was not picked up until I was 30 weeks pregnant. I had all the usual ante natal checkups including an amnio at 20 weeks because I was told there was a chance of a more serious problem than had already been diagnosed. Two weeks I waited for the results of that test and was told with massive relief that it was all clear and my DD was perfectly healthy apart from having club foot which would be operated on when she was born. Imagine going through meetings discussing her care and being distraught at the thought of a newborn being put under general anaesthetic and being operated on, only to find out by accident (i.e me insisting there was something else wrong and being dismissed as 'neurotic') when you have got all the baby things ready and your older DD is over the moon with excitement to have a baby sister, that the baby is going to die anyway and being pressured into agreeing that the baby will not be resuscitated as it would be 'upsetting for the staff who have to do it'. I was also refused a c-section or an induction of labour as I would not agree to an immediate abortion and had to carry my DD for 2 weeks until the stress caused premature labour, knowing she could die at any time. The way I was treated during and after the birth by the midwifery staff was unforgivable.

That is one example of NHS incompetence but 3 months after that happened, my DD1 was misdiagnosed with 'constipation' when she actually had appendicitis. I told the GP on every visit (5 over 4 days) that she was not constipated (since when was copious vomiting, drowsiness and agonising stomach pains related to constipation). I eventually took her to A&E myself and her appendix burst during the 4 hour wait because we were rudely told that just because I was shouting that my DD (4 yr old) was basically unconscious, we would not get seen any quicker . I will never forget the annoyed attitude of the doctor who finally saw us (receptionist told her WE were being rude) and the change in her attitude when she finally examined DD and it was panic stations with doctors and nurses flying out of nowhere. DD almost died (in fact we were told a few more hours and she would have) and my GP later falsified her notes saying that he had told us to take her to A&E immediately on the last visit although there was no referral evidenced. I was gobmacked but too shellshocked to do anything about it.

My aunt also died from catching MRSA from her IV in a dirty hospital which the Chief Exec was later sacked from. She had cancer but she didn't die from that and went in for treatment feeling quite well.

In direct contrast, my nephew also had appendicitis while on holiday in a very primitive European country with very little budget for healthcare but very dedicated staff (therein lies the difference). He was diagnosed correctly quickly and operated on with no ill effects.

I also had reason to go to A&E in that country and was seen within 10 mins of arriving and treated on a weekend evening all free.

I would like an explanation of why our health service is so crap compared to other EU countries like France, Italy and Malta.

I should imagine that those who disagree with the OP are those who had had good experiences with the NHS but when it goes bad, it can be catastrophic.

Can someone explain how the changes to the GP contract have been associated with some of the A & E problems?

If the NHS is crap, please name the National system that you would replace it with : allowing for how much extra tax you would pay if you mention Germany or France.

babycham you are absolutely right about females GP's imp and it's another problem that there is a reluctance to discuss. I suspect it is also an issue in hospitals, but it's not really having such an impact yet, probably because females are less prevalent in cinsultant roles. At one point DH was seeing 150% of the "average" number of patients for his trust (as was) because of covering maternity leave.

Obviously it is their absolute right to take that leave, but I am not sure those working practices are in patients'' best interests. Obviously it's difficult for hospitals to pick up specialists to cover for 6 months or a year here and there.

Baddz
I would suggest the reason none your GPs work 'full-time' is because it is not sustainable to work the hours required to be classed as full time. And at the risk of causing a riot I dare say part of the problem is encouraging lots of women into medicine; they rightly want to take career breaks, have children and the come back to work with a more sensible work-life balance.

People complain about the lack of home visits but if the doctor visits someone who doesn't really need it they are wasting valuable time. Lets say 20 mins travel each way and 20 mins with the patient... 1 hour to see 1 person when they could deal with 6 in the surgery. Not to mention they have none of the tools or resources available on a home visit that they do in the surgery.

And just because the surgery is only open 8-6 (or whatever) doesn't mean they are only working that. What about the letters, blood tests, telephone calls, meetings, admin, etc, etc.

I'm not defending crap GP services as I have experienced it myself (luckily have a decent GP now, although the surgery is still average at best). But the problem is lack of GPs per head of population, not lazy GPs.

babycham Most of the claims you have made are equally unsubstantiated. As far as I recall the only source you have referred to is the CF research and everything else (impact of immigration, effect of higher spending, etc) is pure hyperbole.

I have already described my own comments as anecdotal, but I am very interested (one might say invested) in the topic as a cancer patient with a consultant DH, and many medical people in our family practising across the world.

All the stories of bad experiences is not due to the NHS as an institution, but mord of individual/departmental faults. The NHS is providing what it promises - free health care. The problem is more organisational (whether this is GP practice or which area you live. For example, my PIL live 2 miles away and are registered with a large GP practice close to their home and they struggle to get a timely appointment. We are registered with a practice based 5 miles away (where we used to live, when we moved we signed a document stating we would not expect home visits if we were to stay registered with them. Yesterday DS2 was not well, called at 8.30am, seen at 9.40am, blood tests taken (at a different clinic) at 11am.

I also have horror stories, for example DM was in very severe pain, GP didn't think it was serious, she paid to see a consultant at local private hospital; two days later this same consultant who said nothing was wrong had to perform major emergency surgery (on the NHS) after she was rushed into A&E

I for one will always be grateful that whenever a loved one is taken ill, thoughts of paying for treatment is not a consideration that we have to bare

Younggirl, I've only directly cited the Commonwealth Fund, Health and Social Care Information Centre, the US National Institute of Health and OECD stats in Mother Jones. The rest of what I've said about the NHS may be conjecture, but it's all fact and evidence-based.

However, my mini-rant about the whole country being fucked is, I concede, pure hyperbole.

I can accept 'a bit crap' because there are without doubt bits of it that are. There must be because you hear so many complaints, here and elsewhere. I have friends who have been very unhappy about their treatment. Having said that I personally can't fault the care I and my family have received over the years. Yes, there have been minor delays, and OK, the hospitals might look a bit dowdy and run down, and of course there are the odd overworked and irritable members of staff... but on the whole I can have no complaints. The fear I have is that there will come a point when it can no longer cope and that point is getting nearer and nearer.

YoungGirl yes they know I've got it as I've made sure its on my notes and when I visit for something I know is going to need further investigation I tell the GP I've managed to get an appointment for!

It took the NHS (Yorkshire) over 6 months to diagnose my DSF with liver cancer and transfer him to his nearest specialists at Jimmy's in Leeds. The original hospital were worse than useless, Jimmy's were bloody amazing. Shame that by the time they got their hands on him there was nothing they could do as it had spread throughout his liver and into his bowel. He died 8 months later.

It took the NHS (Essex) nearly 6 months to diagnose my MIL with cancer of the jaw. After 9 months of non-effective treatment they finally told us there was nothing they could do having previously told us the radiotherapy was working. By that time it was too late to seek a second opinion as it had started to eat through her soft tissue. She died 3 months later.

It took the NHS (Sussex) over 6 months to diagnose my Aunt with aggressive lung cancer despite repeated trips to the GP, xrays and god knows what. At the point they finally told us, she was stage 4 and nothing they could do at all beyond palliative care. She died less than 3 months later.

Doesn't seem to matter what my DM goes to the GP about she gets told the problem is because she smokes! Doesn't explain what is plainly arthritis in her hands at all or the problems with her knee or her varicose veins - none of which are being treated.

Me - anything gynecological will be fixed with a magic Mirena coil, barely get any investigation. Anything else well that's my diabetes (type 2) apparently.

All of these are within the last 12 years in different locations round the country. It really shouldn't have to be a fight to get a diagnosis and timely treatment. We read so many threads on here where people are fighting to get what they need to get treated and are either thwarted by the system or made to feel they are wasting the doctor's time. It's not good enough and we shouldn't stand for it anymore.

Sorry that turned a bit epic

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10641189/Doctors-paid-up-to-3000-a-shift-official-figures-show.html
Is it any wonder the NHS is struggling when you see where a lot of the money goes. Somethings wrong somewhere.

I'm with you, OP. Mixed experiences with the NHS, and what I don't get is this belief that it is absolutely beyond criticism. I've had great experiences myself, I've been lucky to live near one of these mythical GPs where it's easy to get appointments when you need them, but know far too many people (particularly elderly ones) who've been treated very badly indeed. My grandma's experiences in hospital towards the end of her life make me very sad and thank fuck she was moved to a nursing home where they were capable of doing basic stuff like, you know, feeding her.
Yes we are lucky to have it, because it could be a lot worse.... but that doesn't mean it's perfect.

Remember GPs who work part time only get part time wages. Why shouldn't we work part time? A full time day is 13-14 hours. I started at 7 am this morning and finished at 2pm. So much for a half day. I haven't worked full time since I had my children but I am often in on weekends and days off to catch up. I am also the finance and staff partner so I have to manage all financial and staff problems. In fact the reason I work part time is because I believe I am a more enthusiastic and better GP because of it as I am not experiencing burn out.
To the person whose consultant OH is home by 6pm. That is lucky and not common.
Also remember when they quote GP income you have to deduct employers superannuation from there. You know the bit that your employer pays into your pension scheme well GPs are their own employers so we have to pay that ourselves.

But there are problems and we need more investment.
I think one of the biggest problems is the increase in the number of elderly patients with complex medical needs. We had one last week who had about 4 or 5 999 calls which didn't get taken to hospital but despite a colleague and I visiting them several times during the week we couldn't sort their problems out and unfortunately the care of the elderly hospital had no beds and they had to go to the main hospital which is heaving at the moment.

Yadnbu!

I hate this the NHS is perfect in every way. People compare it to either not having a health service or the worst health service (USA). Compare it to any other western European service and it is awful.

You work 7 hour days and get paid £50k a year? Do you know how many other people would kill for that salary on those hours? The work you put in is reflected in the salary you're paid. The idea you're somehow hard done by is laughable. If you want to work 20 hours a week go and get an admin job that pays you £10k a year.

That post to me sums up everything that's wrong with the NHS. Hours and a salary which would be a dream anywhere else, but within the NHS it's somehow an example of being hard done by. Sheesh.

All of these posts about how "the NHS saved my life", "the NHS saved my child's life" - the NHS didn't save your life - MEDICAL CARE saved your life.
Just because other systems that work on private insurance have horrors stories (as if the NHS doesn't!) doesn't mean that the NHS is the only system that works (even though it doesn't).
In the majority, if not all, western countries if a person needed emergency care - they would be given it. Systems like the Swiss's have procedures in place to make sure no one gets left behind.