to think the NHS is a bit crap

[eyebags63]

And because it is treated almost as a kind of religion nobody is allowed to say anything negative about it at all. And actually just because it is "free" (a mere 110bn a year) doesn't mean we should be eternally grateful for bad treatment.

My experiences are of elderly relatives being mistreated in hospital, non-existent services in some areas, screw-ups, buck passing, treatment delays, being treated as a number with no dignity or privacy, a significant number of staff that appear not to care one little bit. I could go on.

In other health systems people can get referred and treated within days or weeks. Here we accept that waiting for months on end in pain is normal. We accept exhausted staff, lack of access, dirty hospitals, ambulances queuing outside hospitals and restricted treatment resources.

Yes it is "free at the point of use", but isn't that half of the problem? Walk into any GP surgery or A&E and you can witness so many abuses of the system. On the other hand genuine patients are often seem to be treated as a nuisance.

I'm not saying the NHS should be scrapped but surely it is about time we at least looked at different ways of doing things.

Who even suggested it was acceptable? Certainly not me.

But as I said there is no such thing as a perfect system. Mistakes happen everywhere.

Ukip Yes, like my earlier post, German doctors love working for the NHS. But like I also said, they generally do not want to be treated by it.

Sirzy I agree, mistakes happen.

However, Stafford was not a one-off mistake, but a long running problem which was ignored, denied and tried to be justified. Wrong on so many levels ...

"How much do we currently pay from our salaries to fund the NHS? Does anyone know? Because obviously that saving would fund a lot of private health insurance (rather than paying twice as some people do, if the NHS won't treat them)."

Health accounts for about 18% of public expenditure, so if it was all fully privatised with no public subsidies you'd get back roughly £18 for every £100 you pay in tax/NI.

Taking your hypothetical figure of 85euro (roughly £65) per month for private insurance, a household would have to currently contribute £360 or more in tax/NI per month per person covered to be better off under the private system (and again that's assuming no state subsidies for anyone).

That's nice Littlemonkeyface

Ubik1 Agree, not nice and did not really know how to respond, but reflects what many think about the NHS in the (first) world. I don't think many people in the UK realise this as the government tells them otherwise.

And it did make me think that the limited NHS funds are not spent wisely i.e. too much spent on individual staff and not enough on patients. I purposefully say individual staff because I do believe that the overall staff budget is actually too low.

G.P.'s got a payrise because they had fallen behind other equivalent professionals and there were fewer doctors wanting to go into primary care.

We need a GP to explain the financial complexities of running a practice. Partners are self-employed.

Hospital doctors are different, I think. Pp said ordinary doctors in private hospitals are paid less. Consultants, of course, often do NHS and private work.

Thanks NotDavidTennant. I'm pretty sure a family of 4 with 2 children wouldn't pay 4 x the same cost as a single adult though. And its capped by the government anyway.

I'd far rather pay 85 Euros per month and know its for health care and a certain level of service will be provided. Its also cheaper than private health care in this country, as it covers everything the NHS does.

Obamacare isn't the wonderful change that everyone is Europe thinks it is. Cost has gone up by 200% in terms of cost of coverage and copays went from a universal $10 per doctor visit, prescription or day in hospital to 30 for a gp visit, $50 for a specialist visit and $500 a night in hospital. Of course all preventative appointments are $0 but I pay far more now than I did before and the charity care which targeted certain groups has gone away now people think they don't need to find it. Truth is those in the gap are in a far worse position than before. Those working in retail and other low paid jobs are all on 30hr contracts now and get no coverage. Those here illegally who pay no taxes get coverage.

Also, our plan is considered a Cadillac plan so we pay a tax on our plan. DH is looking at just paying healthcare costs in full on company credit card as it will be far cheaper this way. In 2009 there were 3 babies born and an employee had a quadruple bypass. Total cash cost today would be $250k which is less that what they pay in premiums.

This makes no sense. If you're on a 30-hour contract and your employer doesn't offer insurance then you can buy it through the exchange with a subsidy. These are exactly the kind of people that Obamacare is helping.

I'm in the US, and I'm on Obamacare BTW. It's a pretty wonderful change from my POV. I was able to leave my job and still buy health insurance that costs one price regardless of what pre-existing conditions I may have.

The NHS is NOT crap. I live in Germany where you have to sort out your own health insurance.. You never realise what you've got until it's gone, believe me.

I'm on a US medical site, and there's a whole section on financial advice. From what I gather, there are various plans you can go on, but they vary from state to state. Kentucky is still refusing to implement the reforms.

Kentucky is actually an example of a state that has had success in implementing its own healthcare exchange website and enrolling people. It's also among the states that expanded Medicaid as part of Obamacare.

When you go to buy an 'Obamacare' policy you can go to a website or you can phone a helpline.

Some states run the website themselves. Some use the federal website www.healthcare.gov.

You enter your state, your age, whether or not you're a smoker, your income, social security number and income.

It then shows you the plans available in your state offered by private insurance companies like Anthem, Kaiser, United Healthcare, and by cooperatives. The plans mostly vary in terms of premium and out of pocket costs eg lower premium = high out of pocket costs.

It tells you how much subsidy you are likely to get, and if you qualify for programs like Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, etc.

Here's a summary of the benefits of Obamacare
obamacarefacts.com/benefitsofobamacare/

The downsides to Obamacare IMO are that if you are already offered health insurance through your employer then you can't enroll in Obamacare and receive the subsidies, and the whole system still relies on private for-profit insurers. And that the system doesn't tackle the general inefficiencies in the system.

From a personal POV, in my state 90% of the people who enrolled in Obamacare receive subsidies. I know many many people who can now get the healthcare they couldn't get before. It's making a difference here.

I really appreciate the NHS being free, that's truly great.

However, there are massive problems and e.g. the waiting times are ridiculous and they won't pay for a variety of normal medicines. It doesn't compare to other modern Western European countries, but seems sort of communist stuck in the mud.

For example, I had a knee injury which would have been seen to immediately in certain other countries, but was given an appointment 4 months later by the NHS. I paid for treatment while waiting I was so desperate. Then finally got to the NHS physio who was crap anyway and instead of discussing options with you, they state what you will or won't get.

I find that some NHS staff are wonderful, but a lot of them treat the patients patronisingly. They set the rules and we just have to take whatever.

Not sure yet if I can risk living here when I get older.

It just all seems so patchy doesn't it. I can't get an appointment at my GP - spent 3 hours waiting at an out of hours walk in centre because I couldn't get a routine appointment with my GP for three weeks. I had to spend a day on a surgical day unit a year or so again and was meant to be followed up for minor surgery - but was just never sent the appointment and didn't want surgery there anyway due to the disgusting treatment I witnessed during that day. But then I also know of many who's lives have been saved by amazing teams of Drs and Nurses.

Babyroobs, I agree it's patchy.

I've met wonderful Drs and nurses, but then others who made stupid mistakes e.g. in letters after appointments that are impossible to correct because they apparently "don't matter" (I prefer things to be correct).

What annoys me most about the NHS is the rigid and stubborn approach of some medical staff and the limitations in care due to lack of NHS funds.

But it is wonderful how it's free to everyone.

They need to issue ID cards though, that you show each time you have an appointment or something. It's an open invitation to the world how it works at the moment, free care without checks. The ID cards need strict criteria before being issued: checks that the person truly is eligible i.e. is resident in the UK etc

The nhs compares very well when compared to healthcare around the world, however you should always report bad care.

I may be lucky but the hospital I work in takes every complaint seriously and is constantly looking to improve and learn from those times we don't provide the best care. I would hope all hospitals are the same. My own grandmother had very mixed care in the last 12 months. I was 5 hours away and my dm was being passive and assuming nurses were doing all they could. I called and escalated. We ended up with an apology and more importantly the issues were rectified. If things go wrong, tell them.

Before I start

Why do people repeat this kind of mantra "you have no idea how lucky we are..." etc. It is like the NHS is some kind of national cult and nobody can see the massive problems.

Actually everybody knows it has problems, no thanks to the torys & labour (appointing ministers, who don't have any fucking knowledge of how the NHS works).

But IF you would like a US style medical service go ahead. Where everything is dictated by those leeches also known as investors in insurance companies

I'm not going to stop you, but don't come running to me when you're heavly in debt!.

BTW have you read these :-
As an American doctor who recently visited a British A&E I have a message
&
An American doctor experiences the NHS. Again.

There are many other articles from (non UK people) out there, praising the NHS.