to not want to speak to DM at all after this? MH related.

[TheOrchardKeeper]

Loooong story. I've had depression for years on/off. I can handle it and do go to the GPs the second I feel it coming on. I have been in hospital twice since I was 13 (now 20s) and as a parent myself I understand she is just worried etc.

Sooooo last night, as per usual, I had my phone on silent, and missed one call so she rang again and sent texts, saying I was out of order for worrying her (she seems to think I will off myself with DS in the house which is insulting as even when I have been very ill I've told her I'd never do something so selfish and dangerous to DS). And then sent another saying I'm ungrateful etc. I read all this earlier today and was really upset and have had enough as it's been a years long issue. I've bitten my tongue because I know she means well and doesn't "get it". When I had food poisening and called her in the night a few weeks back because I was worried I was seriously ill/too ill to look after DS alone (we live alone) she shouted down the phone about it probably being a mental health thing/dramatic thing and I left it at that.

Anyway, I sent her this, this morning: ^I wouldn't ignore you on purpose or randomly off myself with DS in the house. My phone is always on silent and I've told you that before, sorry. I don't think you realize how insulting it is when you imply I'm being manipulative or doing things on purpose. Like when you asked if that food poisoning was a mental health thing. Don't worry about this weekend. Not in a stroppy way, I just need some space. I get you worry but you don't listen when I explain the above stuff. I don't expect to be babied but you can be pretty insensitive about this stuff. Sorry".

To which I got: phones always on silent wow didn't realise was 100 PC of time.... And u have have had MH probs and I was only caring / being caring coz I love you ! Ok u don't want to talk to me and think it's ok to be nasty to me ,. Fine !!! u don't want my help and want to just let me worry ... Take care

And then: Well ur timing and style was impeccable !!! That was pretty nasty how u did that ... Why didn't u talk to me??? What's the bloody matter with you !! Bloody immature .... And ungrateful really . . No more txts I've had enough of this shit if u can't talk to me nicely and have to treat me like that I guess it's best u don't

I know I've upset her and feel bad but I can't take that attitude to it anymore. And I missed out lots more stuff that I felt like saying but didn't to try and not make it seem like an attack but now just wish I'd told her everything.

Is it bad to just leave it? I can't even face a shouting match right now. If I'd upset DS as much as she'd upset me I'd want him to tell me, even if it hurt. I'm taking DS out to distract us in a bit. What a bloody morning

No-one would ever say "Well have you tried not having a broken leg?" to someone in plaster, or "Just try not to think about breathing" to an asthmatic!

Thank you. I really appreciate the replies. I can't see the tree for the woods right now.

And she's not the bully type. She's just very strong headed, believes she's right and isn't a very good listener. She doesn't seem to actually enjoy hurting other people, like a proper bully. And she can be caring in her own way. She's just so OTT and loud etc and it feels smothering sometimes. Especially upsets me when like a PP says she tells me to ask for help more then when I do I get told off like a naughty child.

Oh I know her attitude to MH outright stinks. I don't let other people make me feel guilty for it. But when your own mother thinks it's your fault you're sick and you just didn't try hard enough it's very very hurtful.

And more so that she thought I'd ignore her like a petulant child, despite knowing it would worry her I've nver answered at night. I have my phone on but not even on vibrate.

But, OP, that is bullying.

Steamrollering over you and your feelings.

Telling you that you are just weak, that you should just get over it, that you are only doing it to upset her.

She has never met your emotional needs but requires you to meet hers. As a small child you learnt not to look to her to meet your emotional needs, hence the passiveness, a bit like a neglected baby just gives up crying in the end because it learns that no-one comes. It leaves a gap in the emotional development of a child and is what causes mental illness.

You are still running around trying to be the correct daughter she requires and it is making you ill. I feel terribly for you, OP, and I am not surprised you can't quite see how badly she has let you down. I am 41 and am only just really seeing how much my awful parents damaged me. I didn't really start addressing it until I was 30.

I think you've actually been pretty restrained - I'd have done for her if I'd received texts like that.

I suspect I rather agree with Cakecrumbs. Have you thought about sending her completely inconsequential (but regular) texts to get her off your back? (TV shows etc - and you don't have to actually watch them!) I absolutely wouldn't discuss anything important or emotional with her.

I completely understand what you mean when it is your own mother saying these things. It is hard to completely believe that she is wrong and something inside whispers that maybe she is right and there is something deeply wrong with you.

I know how that feels, been there, bought the t shirt and not sure I will ever shake it off. I would suggest that CBT is not enough to deal with this sort of emotional damage. You need psychodynamic counselling or indeed psychoanalysis.

Google the following right now:
Daughters of narcissistic mothers

and

FOG - fear, obligation - Guilt.

From what I've read I'd say your MH health issues are directly caused by your mother denying you an existence as an independent being - she seems to think you exist for her to dominate and bully.
You need to locate the stately homes thread on here as well and STOP texting your mother. You are so conditioned to her you are not even questioning why your would reply to the sort of texts she sends. She is obviously very very controlling and likes to exert authority over those she deems inferior.

She accused you of being manipulative - what crap, this is clear projection of HER manipulation of YOU.

I suppose. It's hard to see when it's your life and you're used to it.

What makes me angry is that when she needs me, I have to listen to her. She used to offload onto me as the eldest (she was a single parent) about money, or my brother or a partner at the time and it was too much for a kid to be worrying about. I often joke that I was her "second in command". But when I need the same she's too busy, I'm being OTT, she doesn't properlly listen then starts going on about her mid sentence and it drives me mad.

So I do just use friends for that stuff. Which is ok because I have made a few brilliant friends since having DS.

She's getting remarried this year but she regularly calls me up to tell me how terrible he is once a month or so, then next thing I know they're great again.

I am ranting because I'm angry but you sort of get the picture. There is a LOT of backstory to this.

I do usually do that cozie but thanks

if we've not spoken in a while i'll send her a picture of DS or just sort of send a "hey how're you" text so she knows I'm fine. I've been quiet this week because I've been very busy and she does know that. Had a theory test, been revising for that most evenings (I passed...YAY) and DS has been ill.

It's very difficult to see how badly your own mum has treated you because that is your 'normal'. You need to see that your benchmark is wrong. I think becoming a mum yourself is helping you a little because now you can look at your own child and know you'd never be like that as a parent. But sorting out a lifetime of conditioning with what you're learning as a parent now isn't easy.

You don't want to label your mum as a bully because it doesn't fit with your image of what a bully is. Which is fine. But do you see that your emotions have been abused? At the very least you have suffered a lifetime of emotional neglect.

Wow, I came here today to try and find a bit of advice about my own mother who has become overbearing since moving abroad 1.5yrs ago.

I can relate to a lot of what you say, although my mum is not as openly "mouthy" in talking to me.

I feel the same as you and the previous posters observation of "FOG - fear, obligation - Guilt." explains how I feel completely.

Do you sit there and constantly mull over the conversations and have imaginary arguements in your head with your mum? That's what I do, and as someone else said, I also didn't realise how dysfunctional my mum is, and to a point, I still don't, I think maybe it's me? Maybe I should be better at talking to her etc, but as with you, it's causing me massive anxiety issues that I'm now struggling to control.

I wish I had the answer, but I can relate to how you feel.

The thing is Roland, that you can't be better at talking to her because it is simply not possible to have a normal debate with someone like this. They don't stick to the rules of "normal" that the rest of us do.

The ONLY thing you can do is refuse to engage. Don't get into any sort of debate at all. Shut anything like that down with "that just doesn't work for me" or, indeed, just "no". Stop trying to justify your decisions and actions, stop giving her information about your life. Leave it a few days before replying to emails or phone messages. Create distance.

Above all remember, you are not required to have any sort of relationship with anyone that you don't want, even if they are your mother. AND YOU SO NOT NEED TO GIVE A REASON. That is normal boundaries

I've had more imaginary arguments and confrontations with her than I have hot meals! But thought that was a mother daughter thing. I've always thought she was intense as parents go but like you say it's your normal so you don't question it. And she throws the depression in my face when I do so I have felt like I'm being unreasonable because of the depression. If that makes sense. Because I've not replied like I usually would she's texted to say she just can't believe I was so off with her and lets meet up for lunch this week sometime.

That's the FOG talking. You are not responsible for her depression. Tell her to go to the GP. She'll soon stop trotting that one out if it stops working on you.

It sounds like you have always had a tense relationship with her, especially as she abused you as a child.

I look back and feel like everything was okay until the last few years, but I could be masking it all, I've lost all perspective on what's normal.

If I give an inch she takes a mile.. I find it so hard to say no.. when I'm really busy at work, (self employed) she wills till ring for hour long chats as I find it really hard to say sorry I'm busy, I feel like I'm being very rude!

I've also tried to distance myself, with disasterous effects so far. Had a 1.5hr long chat Friday afternoon, all okay, Saturday at 10am I get a call to ask me if something is wrong, as I've been "off" and "distant" on the phone. Trying not to scream, "I'm busy mum! and 3 or 4 calls during the week when nothing new has happened is too much."

I guess it helps knowing there are others' in the same position.

My sister is the opposite, live in Australia and will just ring every few weeks or so, doesn't hardly text back, but that's okay because it's the norm apparently.

Time to start being selfish, everyone else seems to be!

Erm, have you noticed that she makes it 'all about her'..?

Gosh - it's still all about her, isn't it? And she doesn't want to stop.

I've changed my mind. I think I'd also be distancing myself from her. (My own mother was very self-absorbed and that was the way I handled her - because it is often about managing things while you improve on your own.)

You have a slight awkwardness in that you have a DS, a mother who wants to control you and is also a social worker, and a history of depression so I'd be tempted to write her a very calm letter advising her to back off and saying that you won't be in touch so much. (Someone else might be able to help you on how to phrase it.) She's got a bit more of a hold on you because of your son in the sense that you don't need people turning up on your doorstep at 2 in the morning because she's expressed a concern.

Laying an audit trail so to speak. (Even more of one if you've been to mediation in the past.)

Ah yes. She's a learning disabilities SW thankfully. Not child protection. And I had one visit with a lovely lady last year because I was in hospital and she said all things considered I looked after him better than a lot of "well" parents That made me feel a lot better.

And i've never put him in danger so they said they weren't concerned in that respect. But yes it does feel like even with the last message it's still about her. Despite her saying I'm the selfish ungrateful one

Haven't replied yet because I don't know what to say/doubt I can say anything that won't make her blow her lid. I will though or I'll be accused of ignoring her etc etc...

It does help knowing it's not just me and I may not just be "overreacting" which is what happens usually. I've not actually been so honest with her in about 6 years (very pathetic I know but it's just NOT worth it) so I do feel weirdly relieved. There's something toxic about bottling all that emotion etc!

DS loved the film. It was an empty cinema today which was nice. Took my mind off it for a bit anyway. Thank you for the replies. They are stopping the usual cycle of questioning myself then giving in/sucking it up for an easy life.

I'm trying really hard not to just give in and apologize like I normally would. I'm not sorry for telling her she upset me, though I am sorry it upset her so much.

Going to bed early with a good book and a strong glass of . Need the escapism. I really do feel like it's all so unhealthy sometimes because I feel like I have to hold so much in when I talk to her or am around her. I've relished living with just DS the past 4 years (I know that makes me sound terrible but I've been generally happier since, if a little lonely at times...luckily I'm a total introvert anyway).

Sweetie, I'm so sorry, your mother is a bully and I too suspect that your depression is due to her. Do get over to the stately homes threads on the relationships board and take a look there. You will recognise many of her traits and you will get the help and support you need there.

I've always seen that thread and thought nothing of it. I'll have a look Thanks.

Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so

How can you do this to me? Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation

Well I'll be damned. It's just hard to match what I know/feel and what rings true in the above with DM. I'm not sure why. Certainly a lot of guilt in the way.

I'd have a good dip into the Stately Homes thread mentioned above (nice one, Dawndonna) and get some more perspective on your relationship. Mayeb a good idea to read that with a large pot of tea rather than - escapism can feel very alluring but you have to choose your times, I think, and you might just be a little raw at the moment.

Glad DS liked the movie.

So you weren't there at her beck and call when she rang you. Rather than think you were busy or it wasn't convenient for you to answer the phone or any of a ton of other rational reasons, she turned on you and made it all about her. She's a grade A bitch and a manipulator from what you've related here.

I enjoyed it to tbh. Was very life affirming And funny. Just what I needed. I've drunk a lot of sweet [cuppa] today just because it's soothing. It does help, I don't care what tea-haters say. And thanks, reading a tiny bit now and really surprised how much of it rigns true. But also feel bad for thinking so badly of DM after everything she has done for me. Which I suppose says a lot in itself.

She thought I was seeing her calls and ignoring her to worry her on purpose and make her come over to check on me. Not that i've done anything that imature since I was about 16!! I get she must worry sometimes about the MH stuff but I've been fine for ages and if she suspected I might be ill and hiding it why on earth would she react that way anyway. I wouldn't dream of it with a friend or DS. It was about 11pm and I had texted her back about something else half an hour before but was dead to the world by then. Saw them when DS woke up at midnight ish (he has a bad cold, poor thing). And she does know I have my phone on silent at night because she did that before a few times and the only time I don't pick up or reply asap is when it's on silent/i'm asleep/very busy!