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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To boycott establishments that sell halal meat?

196 replies

penguinpear · 29/01/2015 09:28

www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/life/food/article4333133.ece

I don't eat meat and am aware that a lot of meat in this country has been produced with dubious animal welfare standards, but for halal abattoirs to trade on the fact that their meat is 'stun free' ie the animal dies in panic and agony and they promote this, seems very wrong to me.

The British Veterinary Association objects to it too.

OP posts:

SunshineBossaNova · 29/01/2015 12:45

Not all parts of an animal are kosher specialsubject, for example the hindquarters, and they are often sold without labelling as being from non-stunned animals. It's on page 1 of this RPSCA report.

RSPCA report into slaughter without pre-stunning

TheChandler · 29/01/2015 13:02

ghostyslovesheep if welfare is your thing maybe focus more on how the animal lived rather than how it died

Why? As in why not focus on both? Whats the point in giving an animal a good life if (most fanciful definition) possible, it was to go through an agonising and prolonged death?

(that's a bit like those people who have pets who give them a great home, then get a new one and send the old one off for pet food or whatever) and don't care about them once they are out of their sight.

I do think the way forwards is increasing consumer awareness. I think if more consumers were aware of how awful some practices that are still permitted in both farming and slaughter, there would be more demand for better conditions in both ie the market would react. But both are kept remarkably secret, especially in the UK. But I do think consumers are becoming more aware (treating people as stupid and incapable of understanding things rarely works) and the market will eventually react.

softlysoftly · 29/01/2015 13:03

Sorry Efficiency just picked up on.your q about if non stun was a big cut. It is all oddly fsst isn't it. I find the whole "hello cute lamb oh god you're a quartered corpse" really dissociating!

Chandler you clearly missed the part where I am not a member of a religion, not a supporter of non stun slaughter (i would see it banned) and fwiw I work within a section of the industry that supports higher welfare than the standard. So my "glib remarks" are perhaps factual? Though I realise you are a conspiracy theorist so that will fall on deaf ears.

In your own words

"Stunning is not without error either, but it is a very low error rate compared to halal slaughter"

Its not me banging on.about religion its you and others. Refer to the issue as "stun or non stun slaughter" not as the factually incorrect "halal slaughter".

Bambambini · 29/01/2015 13:10

I don't care if it's halal or not. I would like the animal to have some quality of life while it is alive or for chickens not to be caged etc but not sure halal slaughter is any worse then normal slaughter.

I think many of us can be quite hypocritical when it comes to our meat and eating.

WetAugust · 29/01/2015 13:18

I have been boycotting all food outlets that sell hala meat for some time now.

Slaughtering should be done in the most humane way possible, Any lessening of humane methods to keep religious peoples' imaginary friends happy has no place in modern Britain in 2015.

KnittedJimmyChoos · 29/01/2015 13:18

Liberal Muslim, Dr Taj Haregy said we as a nation should be very wary of halal meat becoming the meat we all eat.

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2623879/We-Muslims-appalled-sale-halal-meat-stealth.html

He said Muslims should be appalled by it covering all meat as well as non Muslims in Britain and I agree with him.

I am Catholic and if there was something in the Bible about only ever drinking blessed wine or something, there is no way I want the whole population to have blessed wine, people feel very strongly about religion and those who are atheist or have simple issues with a particular religion should not have to eat or drink foods that have been blessed.

TheChandler · 29/01/2015 13:26

softly I find the whole "hello cute lamb oh god you're a quartered corpse" really dissociating!

You really do think others are less clever than you, don't you?

Chandler you clearly missed the part where I am not a member of a religion, not a supporter of non stun slaughter (i would see it banned) and fwiw I work within a section of the industry that supports higher welfare than the standard. So my "glib remarks" are perhaps factual? Though I realise you are a conspiracy theorist so that will fall on deaf ears.

Actually, its not a question of missing or not missing posts about yourself. Its a question of a discussion on animal welfare and what future markets might want, not your personal background. I find you a bit egotistical - that's why I don't find your "arguments" very plausible - what you try and do is paint others as ridiculous or trivial and its just not very convincing - its a big red flag. As they say, you have a grandiose sense of self worth...

And no, of course I am not a conspiracy theorist - why do you say things like that? I'm a lawyer.

perfectlybroken · 29/01/2015 13:33

I have seen animals killed in a halal way on my in-laws farm (in a Muslim country) without stunning. The animal doesn't die in pain an agony, the process is so quick and efficient that they don't have a chance to realize what is happening. If done properly of course. I was vegetarian for 20 years, and while not now, animal welfare is a high priority for me. I watched the animal being killed as I wanted to see if it was inhumane. I didn't find it upsetting (other than a little as I'd never seen a animal being killed before), and felt happy to eat the meat.

softlysoftly · 29/01/2015 13:38

Chandler so instead of discussing my factual arguments you instead decide my personality by interpreting my method of writing and the words I use? Not very lawyer like I thought they were all about the facts.

I am not superior, but I won't change my use of language to prove that, why should I? Do you also join the ranks of those who dismiss misspelled posts, do you only find the middle ground "plausible"?

Knitted that's actually a different and interesting argument (albiet probably twisted by the DM). It's not about cruelty but about the validity of halal as a necessity to muslims at all? Something I have never heard of but will look into now thank you.

TheEfficiencyMovement · 30/01/2015 02:05

i still think the most important thing that needs to be done is for meat to be labelled so that consumers have a choice.

I want to know HOW the animal was killed and WHERE the animal was killed.

There is no reason to conceal this information.

mimishimmi · 30/01/2015 03:34

The idea that stunning them somehow makes it less cruel is ill-founded. The animals are still terrified when they go in for stunning - they instinctively know it's their doom. If you were really going to take a vegan ethical stance, you'd boycott anyone who sells any meat product at all.

DecaffCoffeeAndRollupsPlease · 30/01/2015 03:38

Knitted why would an atheist care about whether their wine were blessed or not? I'm atheist and don't care a jot.

Want2bSupermum · 30/01/2015 03:57

DH works for a slaughterhouse group and I an Jewish. We don't buy kosher or halal meats because we don't agree with the way it is slaughtered.

Head of production said death in the Middle Ages by sword was seen as dignified because you didn't lose control of your bowls but often it was 20+ attempts to take the head off. He said when he started they would stun the animal first because they knew it would take too long. He said it was right that all are stunned first. Don't disagree with him at all.

Want2bSupermum · 30/01/2015 03:58

Labeling does need to improve. I like it that I can see where the meat came from and where it was processed.

TheChandler · 30/01/2015 07:21

i still think the most important thing that needs to be done is for meat to be labelled so that consumers have a choice.

I want to know HOW the animal was killed and WHERE the animal was killed.

An excellent and practical idea. Its ridiculous that we don't already have this. Theres a secrecy surrounding the meat industry which must be based on the concealing of practices that the consumer would find repellent.

softlysoftly · 30/01/2015 08:32

I would rather support a total ban on non stun slaughter.

Labelling something "halal/kosher slaughtered" has a few issues:

it doesn't make it clear at all how the animal was slaughtered, coukd be stun/electrocution/nnon stun

it creates the issue. The majority of muslims don't check stun/non stun status. They assume halal = fine they trust. You start raising it as an issue and they will start looking to question if their meat needs to be non stun. Start believing it should be and specific purchase of non stun slaughter rises. Counter productive.

too much waste. There are parts of a carcass that aren't allowed/aren't popular with specific communities. The general pop won't eat something labelled as religious, they will assume cruel slaughter even if it isn't because as this thread shows people can't differentiate the issue is stunning not the prayer. So wastage will rise which is wrong. Would increase prices, slaughter rates, greenhouse gases due to more animals required etc.

With an outright ban on non stun does it matter wether there was a lrayer or a death metal cd playing at the time of slaughter?

With a ban we can feel comfortable any British produced meat (should be labelked as such) was slaughtered by stunning and meets the minimum animal welfare requirements. Low wastage and those who feel strongly about their meat being non stun can choose to stop eating meat as has happened in NZ. Most muslims will still happily buy stunned halal if not too much noise is made about it.

TheEfficiencyMovement · 30/01/2015 09:04

SoftlySoftly.
I can see what you mean about it creating an 'issue'. It would be interesting to know the actual numbers involved.

OfaFrenchMind · 30/01/2015 10:22

SunnyBaudelaire : not actively anti-Islam, but as I share little to no ideological kinship with Imams, I am not willing to pay toward their wages. That's it.

A friend of mine works in the food industry, and they really have to have an imam coming, pray over their batch of food to get the halal label, and be nicely paid. I just do not want to pay for that.

CaffeLatteIceCream · 30/01/2015 11:32

Actively anti-Islam?

And there it is, entirely predicted by me. Turning concern about how animals may or may not be being killed into religious bigotry. Ridiculous.

The animals should be stunned before they are killed, however they are killed. That should be law for everyone. If someone's particular holy book doesn't like it, tough. The law wins.

It's that simple.

Madmum24 · 30/01/2015 12:17

I always chuckle at people who claim that the halal slaughter method is the "cruel" way. Do you think that in traditional slaughter houses the lovely fluffy lambs are sung lullaby's whilst lying on a bed of roses awaiting their injection to be PTS?

Halal method has strict rules for animal welfare and if followed correctly ensures that the animal does not suffer. eg the animal must:

be fed/watered on the day of slaughter (this is often frowned upon traditionally as it makes the stomach harder to clean)

no animal should witness another being slaughtered

the animal should not see the knife

the one who is slaughtering should be properly trained to ensure that it is a swift cut in the correct place

the knife should be very sharp so that the jugular vein is cut easily

Within a fraction of a second of the jugular vein being cut the animal loses conciousness. It does twitch a bit for a minute as the nerves react.

I have seen this done before and didn't find anything cruel about it.

However anyone is free to boycott anything they want.

SunnyBaudelaire · 30/01/2015 12:19

"Turning concern about how animals may or may not be being killed into religious bigotry. Ridiculous"
yes I totally agree it is ridiculous. Tell me why do you think so many people are getting their panties in a bunch about halal? I can assure you it is not about the animals.

specialsubject · 30/01/2015 12:34

softly kosher meat means the animal was not stunned. Its throat was slit. Same procedure as the Muslims use.

specialsubject · 30/01/2015 12:37

sunshine: Jews can eat the back end of an animal but it needs further processing. This tends to be uneconomical nowadays so it is indeed sold on to the non-kosher market.