To boycott establishments that sell halal meat?

[penguinpear]

www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/life/food/article4333133.ece

I don't eat meat and am aware that a lot of meat in this country has been produced with dubious animal welfare standards, but for halal abattoirs to trade on the fact that their meat is 'stun free' ie the animal dies in panic and agony and they promote this, seems very wrong to me.

The British Veterinary Association objects to it too.

Caffe OP...your concerns regarding halal slaughter are, in fact, shared by lots of people...the RSPCA, British Veterinary Society, various farming societies, not to mention entire countries like Denmark, Norway and others. But dare to mention it on MN? You're an ignoramus, for some reason. You're quite lucky not to have been called a racist islamophobe. (Wish I was joking).

Yes, how predictable. In fact, countries like Denmark are at the head of pig welfare relating to non-castration of pigs. This is good for the UK as they are one of their main customers. Some other countries insist on baby pigs being castrated because of boar taint, but castration is painful for the pigs, fraught with difficulty and can cause ongoing problems until slaughter. Obviously pigs are never going to be halal so this is a different issue, but how many people even know this about the meat they might (or might not eat)? Or bother to find out? While probably describing themselves as animal lovers.

I agree that most likely most slaughterhouses in this country are run well, but theres always bad apples like the Red Lion slaughterhouse, and the lack of prosecution despite strong video evidence shows just how important the authorities are in this area.

good info softly softly.
Also I used to work in a halal butcher, and apparently the knives used are so sharp that they immediately sever the spinal cord. so all this stuff about animals bleeding to death screaming is sensationalist rubbish.

it is haram to treat animals with disrespect or cause undue pain and suffering - so they are killed swiftly and with care

Or even better campaign for a ban on all non stun slaughter in the UK. But unlike the British vet society make sure you are saying you are anti non stun. Not anti an entire religion on a factually incorrect basis.

Did you know all NZ halal lamb in stunned? They banned non stun slaughter. Apart from Kosher. They allow non stun kosher because while the muslim community supported a ban the jewish community would not.

But lets just blame those pesky muslims anyway.

Sunny true. They are dead pretty much instantly either way with just nerves causing twitching. We comfort ourselves that whacking them on the head / electrocution means no pain. Well either way there's going to be a moment of fear and pain and if you can't hack that don't eat your pristinely wrapped non animal looking supermarket lamb shanks.

The animals are alive far longer than a short moment of death. Buy in a way that improves that time of their lives not the religious or non religious method of their deaths.

They are dead pretty much instantly either way with just nerves causing twitching

Absolute tosh. Or you must have a very flexible attitude towards what a "moment" constitutes. It depends on how much care is taken to make sure the spinal cord is severed, and how much time consents they are under. Its a bit like the lie that halal-slaughter supporters like to propagate that "most halal slaughter is pre-stunned first" - in what world is "most" acceptable? "Other countries do worse things" is another avoidance tactic.

Stunning is not without error either, but it is a very low error rate compared to halal slaughter.

Its the mumsnet equivalent of someone patting you on the head and saying "there, there, don't you worry your pretty little head about it, a big man will take care of it all and it will all be great".

Think I might become a veggie!

I've not seen a non stun slaughter but I thought the animal is killed by having its throat cut with a BIG cut. The animals are not slowly bled to death they are killed by having their head nearly sliced off! I would also assume that the lifting of the animal and the slicing of its neck are done at almost the same time.

Please correct me if I am wrong - I'm happy to change my point of view.

What a PP said about slaughter men's knives is very true. I was constantly sharpening my knife - it was like a razor blade. It went through the meat like butter. I'm sure the knives used by slaughter men involved in not stun killing would be just as sharp.

IF you think about it it's in the slaughter mans interest to have the animal killed instantly. Why would you want an animal thrashing about? It would be dangerous.

file:///C:/Users/C/Downloads/Slaughter%20without%20prestunning%20(for%20religious%20purposes)%20information%20sheet%20February%202013.pdf

RSPCA - "The survey showed that 88% of animals slaughtered by the Halal method were stunned before slaughter"

Other figures in there from the DIALREL project show:

74% of cattle
93% of small ruminants
100% of poultry

Pre-stunned before Halal slaughter in the UK

Those people complaining about kosher meat may be interested to know that animals with injuries, eg from long journeys, would not be kosher. It's important for us that animals are healthy when they get to the slaughterhouse. I have moral qualms about meat generally, and eat very little, but don't think that kosher is worse than anything else....

In my few years working in an abboitoirs it was only a handful of times that I saw a captive bolt kill not work. It would have been due to the slaughter men Rushing. It wasn't nice to see the animal in pain. They are hung up instantly so if the stun doesnt work they are writhing around upside down and it's hard to slit their throats safely.

On rare occasions we also had difficulties killing old Bulls with thick skulls who had reached the end of their working lives - the captive bolts were not always up to the job.

stunning is not without error either, but it is a very low error rate compared to halal slaughter

but most Halal meat IS STUNNED - you are referring to non stunned meat - which is not JUST halal

Indeed, I should amend my first message. I boycott halal meat and food AND Kosher meat. Both on the ground I dislike un-stunned slaughter, and I will not pass my time trying to determine who stun or who does not, and also because I refuse that part of the base costs of the goods are to pay an imam to pray over my food.

so it is an anti Islam stance then 'ofaFrenchMind'?

12% non-stunned just isn't acceptable.

Why on earth would stunning have been introduced and heavily used in the UK and by those practising halal slaughter if non-stunning was just as humane and achieved the same effects?

As a country, no in fact, an area, the EU has the most stringent animal welfare laws on the planet (although they are certainly not perfect). We do have access to pre-stunning, so why isn't it compulsory? Just because we have outlawed the bringing of beasts to slaughter in the backs of cars and pick up trucks and dragging an animal down a dark alley to have its throat cut with a sharp knife, doesn't mean we are all so ignorant and stupid not to agree that its simply a matter of yielding a sharp enough knife.

I am fairly sure an Imam doesn't pray over Kosher meat

more halal meat is stunned than kosher meat (100% not stunned) so why do you keep going on about Halal meat?

I don't think an Imam is stood there praying.

TheEfficiencyMovement In my few years working in an abboitoirs it was only a handful of times that I saw a captive bolt kill not work. It would have been due to the slaughter men Rushing.

That is exactly what my father said (slaughterman before he became a butcher). They took animal welfare very seriously, but I remember him telling a couple of stories about slaughtermen who were cruel and thought it all a big joke being sacked. Its a dangerous job - you want a calm beast, not a panicked one.

But the activities at the Red Lion Slaughterhouse recently shows that perhaps the passing years have led to no improvement or even a decline in standards.

chandler I work in the meat industry, I'm not patting your head.

I don't have current figures to hand but but Fights no of 88% is there or thereabouts, so MOST is accurate.

And fwiw I am not a supporter of non stun slaughter, I believe all slaughter should be stunned.

But what I am also not is a proponent of an argument that is bigoted. To argue all halal stun in cruel is a bigoted lie. To argue that you believe that the small amount of non stun slaughter for 2 of the major religions is cruel is your right of opinion. Get your facts straight to add any weight to your argument.

Efficiency non halal slaughter they are stunned standing then hung before the large throat cut.

Halal they have a large throat slit then are hung. Most large abattoirs don't do it because it's messier and takes a longer clean down.

Both go from alive to stripped, gutted, beheaded carcass in a few minutes, it's actually very very surreal to watch.

What branleuse said (quite a bit earlier in the thread)

there is an ongoing (and probably) ever lasting debate about which methods are more humane. Slit throat, or blow out brains?

no-one is ever going to know. Eating meat involves killing animals. Don't like that - don't eat meat.

BTW kosher meat is at least twice the price of non-kosher meat, due to the other processes and restrictions involved. That's why no-one except religious Jews buys it and hence there is no 'boycott' issue.

softly But what I am also not is a proponent of an argument that is bigoted. To argue all halal stun in cruel is a bigoted lie. To argue that you believe that the small amount of non stun slaughter for 2 of the major religions is cruel is your right of opinion. Get your facts straight to add any weight to your argument.

Its you who keeps presenting your own opinion as gospel, then criticising people with whatever insult you can come up with (bigoted/racist/anti-Islam) when they don't agree with you.

I don't find you very plausible.

It should be animal welfare at the centre of this, not religious persuasion (which isn't even shared by the majority of that religion). And secondly, it should be consumer welfare - and I suspect that if it weren't all cloaked in secrecy and full of people like you spouting glib answers to whom you mistake for the uninformed, more consumers would not wish to eat meat which had the risk of being subjected to this archaic and unnecessary method of slaughter.

if welfare is your thing maybe focus more on how the animal lived rather than how it died

SoftlySoftly. I actually know how stunned animals are killed because I worked on the line myself. I have personally stunned and electrocuted animals (I shouldn't have as I wasn't licensed but I was under supervision and it was years ago ) As I said in my post the animals are stunned then hung up almost instantaneously. One guy does the stunning while another guy does the chains. It's all very fast.