to think -women, what´s gone so wrong?

[isaidlesbonotasbo]

Long time lurker, can´t sit on this one any longer.

Fifty years ago I and many other women fought for equality and womens rights. After a long struggle the western world conceded (OK, only up to a point, still a way to go), but things are so very different now.

Fifty years of books, magazines, tv, movies, pop music, education, the internet, showing us very different templates of how womens´ lives can be.
So why do I read here every day of young women who have chosen lazy, abusive, controlling, or selfish partners. Women who apparently must have such low self esteem that they think they deserve no better? Women from all parts of society.

And not only the pleas from the women who have just woken up to the situation they are in, but almost worse the everyday asides from seemingly contented women as part of other topics, which casually mention how OH, DH, DP ´won´t´or ´can`t´ do such and such, or relly´helps´, or spends endless hours and money on his own hobbies.

Sometimes there´s almost competetive banter re how ¨useless¨ their partners are, bless ´em!

Put aside the very real problems of leaving such relationships once stuck in them, why start them in the first place with all the choices available to us? We don´t have forced or compulsory marriage/partnership. Last time I looked, the Taliban were not in charge nor religious leaders all powerful.

And if the answer is that girls and women are socialised within their family of origin to feel worthless, let´s push the question back at their mothers and grandmothers - feminism did not start last week!

(and don´t get me started on who plays the biggest part in raising,
socialising and entitling these men from their early years....)

MTBmummy

Your post will resonate with many many many women. I got a lump in throat reading it.

So so so pleased you are good now

This is what I don't understand (general question) is where these men learn to behave this way ?

If we know this - we can prevent it

Xxxxx again

"I am not some bra burning, man hating radfem" Oh phew! So relieved you aren't One. Of. Those. nonexistent Women.

"But I hate, hate, hate what I see and read every day about what men do to women, here and all over the world. And while the responsibility for that behaviour behaviour lies firmly with men, and the responsibility to change, I feel that we as women can become kind of Stockholm Survivors."

That is not what you OP said, even in the slightest. Not once did you focus on mens behaviour or their responsibilities. It was all about focusing on the behaviour of abused women. Your anger/frustration is pointed in the wrong direction.

Bra-burning??

jezebel.com/5045886/the-truth-is-bra-burning-feminists-never-actually-burned-a-bra

www.snopes.com/history/american/burnbra.asp

time.com/2853184/feminism-has-a-bra-burning-myth-problem/

I am enjoying your thread OP, but come on!!

VenusRising
Figures published by the EU research team in 2012 show that in the UK, women in the same job as men are paid 19.1% less than that men in the same job in the UK, 17.4% less on average in the EU.

No, they don't
in fact they specifically state that the pay gap narrowed:
The declining trend in the pay gap can be explained by several factors, such as a rising share of higher educated female workers or the greater impact of the economic downturn on some male-dominated sectors, such as construction or engineering.

if a part of that can be specifically explained by decline of male dominated industries (I.e more men out of work lessens the pay gap) then they clearly are NOT talking about people with the same job, at the same place with the same undertakings and same responsibilities.

the page links previous reports here
that says: The gender pay gap – the average difference in gross hourly earnings between women and men across the economy as a whole – is persistently high, with considerable differences between countries and sectors. It reflects the problem of balancing work and private life: many women take parental leave and have part-time jobs.

So the EU data actually not only looks at different jobs. but does say what I've said, pay inequality, (or rather the inequality of wealth) is largely caused by different working expectations.

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/11240532/The-gender-pay-gap-has-fallen-to-a-record-low.html

more information about how women get paid the same as men, in fact women under 30 on average get paid more than men.

funnily enough that "on average women earn more" stops being try around the age of 30.
I wonder why that could be

actually I don't need to wonder why, because the EU already told me.
It reflects the problem of balancing work and private life: many women take parental leave and have part-time jobs.

Of course it is true in places where there is no wage transparency that certain people are underpaid (some pared to others) because of their gender, race, colour, religion, disability, sexuality, because they are ugly, because they don't go for a drink on Fridays after work, because of their family name.

Pay transparency would go a long way to solving all of this. (and it's not just a feminist issue)

Gatorade. and Scallop. I do know this! Am just referring to some other peoples idea, even on this thread, of what kind of feminist I apparently am.

Scallops. my op was asking questions about women.I did not mention unruly dogs, parent and child parking spaces or mils either. So what. It was not intended to focus on mens behaviour. That can be a seperate thread. Why don´t you start it?

but almost worse the everyday asides from seemingly contented women as part of other topics, which casually mention how OH, DH, DP ´won´t´or ´can`t´ do such and such, or relly´helps´, or spends endless hours and money on his own hobbies.

yes but I think there is often more than one sid eto these stories.

... Because peoplekind is peoplekind and we all have the potential to do good or not good; it's our choices (& non choices) that make us.

I find it interesting that several women contributing to the thread are either recognising the part that SOME women play, or giving examples of it either consciously or unconsciously.

Even questioning the part women play in forming social norms is clearly an idea that meets with a lot of resistance and denial, and it is very hard to not get defensive about the choices we have made.

I wish I did know why abusers abuse. Does anyone know a good place to start learning about this. I cannot get my head around why any man should want to be such a dick, from being a helpless manchild all the way through EA to fullblown violence. Don´t they have aany pride or self respect?

isaidlesbonotasbo It can be hard to read tone in a comment! But even so, it would be preferable for terms like 'bra burning, man hating, and rad fem' to drop out of use altogether. 'Moderate' feminists should be able to respect other branches of feminism even if they don't agree.

I have seen this conversation several times on MN - how much are women complicit in their own discrimination

My view is that I'm not willing to contribute to the barrage of blame and patronising crap that is directed at women and would rather tackle te problem at its source -men who are violent towards women and children

Given that a radical feminist (in the sense that radical involves getting to the root of a problem) is one who seeks to analyse where male oppression comes from and suggest alternative political structures, rather than one who seeks to work within existing political structures to make women's lives different (a liberal feminist) I don't think any of us who read your opening post were in the slightest danger of mistaking you for a radical feminist.

• Edit, I didn't mean that 'rad fem' should drop out of usage, I meant the attaching of negative terms to feminists, I shouldn't have broken it up. (Wishes there was an edit option for the hundredth time...)

i like that there isn't an edit option, despite the fact it makes me look like a numpty quite frequently as i am a lazy typist and don't use preview!

Lurcio that's a beautifully put definition - I may steal that for future discussions

Petula. yes, obviously such men spring fully formed from only the male side of society. Women don´t have any input at all into where we all are and how we got here. We totally lack agency. There must clearly be only one way, your way to analyse abuse, and to even look at any possible other contributing factors would be completely wrong and not help women in any way.

In fact the even suggesting the debate is apparently woman hating and anti feminist according to some on this thread. Although others seem to find me a radfem lesbo urging all straight women into the earthly Paradise that is lesbian relaationships. Straight from their imaginations, I might add.

So tell me how you propose to tackle the problem. I am listening.

Lurcio. I honestly don´t know what qualifies as a radfem, but thanks for telling me I am not. Others on here have told me I am! (can´t be arsed to do big grin).

I did suggest in a later post that, following the examples in part of the Arab world and Eastern Europe of peoples power to change political systems at root, that perhaps women should have their own Womens Spring. On I believe the biggest website in the UK catering to women, not one single person has picked up on that, only that I am blaming the women, poor dears, for everything. rtft

Sigh.

Petula. yes, obviously such men spring fully formed from only the male side of society. Women don´t have any input at all into where we all are and how we got here. We totally lack agency. There must clearly be only one way, your way to analyse abuse, and to even look at any possible other contributing factors would be completely wrong and not help women in any way.

In fact the even suggesting the debate is apparently woman hating and anti feminist according to some on this thread. Although others seem to find me a radfem lesbo urging all straight women into the earthly Paradise that is lesbian relaationships. Straight from their imaginations, I might add.

So tell me how you propose to tackle the problem. I am listening.

Lurcio. I honestly don´t know what qualifies as a radfem, but thanks for telling me I am not. Others on here have told me I am! (can´t be arsed to do big grin).

I did suggest in a later post that, following the examples in part of the Arab world and Eastern Europe of peoples power to change political systems at root, that perhaps women should have their own Womens Spring. On I believe the biggest website in the UK catering to women, not one single person has picked up on that, only that I am blaming the women, poor dears, for everything. rtft

Sigh.

sorry for doublé post.

Your thread is about women abused by men. I wouldn't expect you to talk about dogs or parking spaces. I would expect you to talk about men's behaviour.

You are totally eradicating mens agency in this. They are they ones whose behaviour is unacceptable. I too am not joining in the chorus of berating women for the choices men make and for trying to get by in a patriarchy.

And there are loads of ways to tackle male violence. Look up Karen Ingala Smith and the work she is doing. Mind you she is a radical feminist so you'd better watch your bra .

"There must clearly be only one way, your way to analyse abuse, and to even look at any possible other contributing factors would be completely wrong and not help women in any way."

I said none of those things. there are plenty of things to discuss and analyse, especially the ways and reasons why women might work to support patriarchal values and what that means for women's liberation. There have been many such conversations on mumsnet before and they have been interesting and enlightening

But women get blamed and abused constantly and I'm not going to add to those voices when what it amounts to is saying to women "you brought this on yourselves" because that is bullshit and victim-blaming and directing blame away from the perpetrators

scallop. my thread was NOT generally about women abused by men. It was specifically questioning why, after decades of feminism we find ourselves where we are and what part if any, women may play in this. I am trying to talk about women,not men. I repeat, I know men must bear blame and take responsibilty for their actions. But so must we.

Look at blueblueblueblue´s op in AIBU at 17.03. Apart from why are men behaving like this - and maybe they should be asked, not me - why are women continuing to engage in this kind of dynamic. It IS a question worth asking if it might open up new ways to empower women, surely?

I will certainly look up Karen Ingala Smith. What work are mainstream men doing around this?

Oh no! my first radfem! Would watch my bra but too old and cba to wear one. (haven´t burnt it tho...)

Okay OP, you want some suggestions of things which would help. Here are' some of mine:

Prosecute perpetrators on the basis of medical evidence and third party witness statements, whether or not the victim is prepared to press charges. Then impose custodial sentences if they're found guilty.

Prevent men with convictions for domestic abuse from getting unsupervised access to their children (because that's one of the reasons women feel they're trapped: the idea that at least they are there to keep an eye on the bastard, not having to hand the kids over without supervision every other weekend).

Introduce free childcare and grants for women taking on re-training courses for work after periods out of the job market looking after children (because one of the reasons they don't leave is because they can't afford to).

Build council houses (because often women with children are on low incomes and know they couldn't afford to rent a house for them and their children if they fled an abusive home).

Improve anti-stalking and harrassment laws (because women with violent partners know their lives are at risk if they leave, and 2 murders a week say they're right on this one).

What doesn't help is blaming women for staying there (or as your recent post comes close to saying, blaming women for not bringing their sons up properly).

My sister lost 20 years of her life to an abusive relationship. Of course there were times when I wanted to shake her and say "just get the hell out" - and of course I did say "get the hell out". But what I didn't say was "you're weak for staying, it's all your own fault" - because it wasn't. (I did like my mum's suggestion, which unfortunately doesn't make it on to the list above, which was "take out a contract on the bastard".)

Petula. In no way have I said ¨you brought this on yourselves´. Perhaps you could quote me directly regarding this point.

If I had said in my op your actual words `why women might work to support patriarchal values and what that means (after fifty years of) womens liberation´ would that have been aceptable? It´s surely what I did say but in different words.

You know why women are still being suckered into abusive relationships in this day and age? Because there are still dickwad men out there preying on them.

As parent to two young boys I see it as an absolutely vital part of their learning and development to understand that women, girls, all females are to be respected, treasured, treated kindly and never, under any circumstance, hurt. If my husband ever laid a finger on me I'd have the confidence to chuck him out after kicking a few of his teeth out. No question. But that's because I was raised in a family where men treated women properly and where women knew their worth. My children will, I hope, follow suit.

So that's where all your scumbag men come from; the little boys who saw their Dads talking shit to their Mamas, the teenage boys who heard their older siblings objectifying someone's sister. That's the bit that needs correcting. Then we can work on women's self-worth.

Lucio. absolutely agree with all your points. As for your Mum, well if a few more women took that attitude and acted upon it then perhaps men might sit up and take notice! (only kidding mods!)

My theory - they do it because they can, because they want to, often because they like it, and they get more positives than negatives from society for this behaviour. And because all to often we let them. No class surrenders power if you ask nicely, it has to be taken.

re your Mum Even the Pope seems to agree violence inevitably has it´s place!