to think -women, what´s gone so wrong?

[isaidlesbonotasbo]

Long time lurker, can´t sit on this one any longer.

Fifty years ago I and many other women fought for equality and womens rights. After a long struggle the western world conceded (OK, only up to a point, still a way to go), but things are so very different now.

Fifty years of books, magazines, tv, movies, pop music, education, the internet, showing us very different templates of how womens´ lives can be.
So why do I read here every day of young women who have chosen lazy, abusive, controlling, or selfish partners. Women who apparently must have such low self esteem that they think they deserve no better? Women from all parts of society.

And not only the pleas from the women who have just woken up to the situation they are in, but almost worse the everyday asides from seemingly contented women as part of other topics, which casually mention how OH, DH, DP ´won´t´or ´can`t´ do such and such, or relly´helps´, or spends endless hours and money on his own hobbies.

Sometimes there´s almost competetive banter re how ¨useless¨ their partners are, bless ´em!

Put aside the very real problems of leaving such relationships once stuck in them, why start them in the first place with all the choices available to us? We don´t have forced or compulsory marriage/partnership. Last time I looked, the Taliban were not in charge nor religious leaders all powerful.

And if the answer is that girls and women are socialised within their family of origin to feel worthless, let´s push the question back at their mothers and grandmothers - feminism did not start last week!

(and don´t get me started on who plays the biggest part in raising,
socialising and entitling these men from their early years....)

OP thank you for your best wishes earlier in the thread, I am doing very well now thankyou , I can tell as after reading your post I told you to fuck off rather then beating myself up all over again trying to work out how in some way I caused myself to go through the abuse I did.
I think the point that we fundamentally disagree on, is that with regards to women in abusive relationships, I believe the reason why women don't leave at a point when it seems obvious to every one else that they should, is due to the psychological effects of abuse, as suffered by any persons within an abusive relationship, and not a 'feminist issue' per se. Sorry I swore at you.

theend If I had been as gracious and less clumsy in my op as you are in your apology, I would not have hurt you. I am sorry too, and take on board your comments. I did come to learn, not goad.

absolute final comment tonight. Did anyone else get a whiff of homophobia now and then?

woowoo22 I am sorry you found my post patronizing. I am genuinely perplexed as to why you find my opinion on drumming home to girls/young women that they have options with regard to their reproductive health. "10 types of contraception !! woo hoo" . and that having a baby before you are ready with a man you often know little about , definitely makes your social/domestic /economic life a lot tougher. If like me you have spent nearly 30yrs with young women who do exactly this and severely hamper their life chances almost from the moment their adult lives are start, you would find it sadly not patronizing but reality. As the saying goes (now THIS is patronizing) Knowledge is power .!

Is it really true that women get paid less than men? (For the same job, at the same company with the same responsibilities)?

Or is it actually the case that women get paid less then men (or more specifically speaking the wealth of all the women in the U.K. combined is less than the wealth of all the men in the U.K. combined) because of choices women make?
Many women choose to have relationships with older men, who have worked for longer, are more senior or even if in the same role at the same pay have more job security and promotion options because they have been there longer. So when said couple have kids it makes sense for the person earning the least to take a break to raise kids. And this happens to be the woman in a lot of (most) cases. Then returning to work is hard as life moved on, your partner never took time out (they didn't have to because you took a step back) and they therefore now likely earn more than you will be able to.
People of the same age (male and female) who did not take time out will have been promoted higher.

After that perhaps due to a lack of role models women are drawn less to traditionally "macho" jobs in stem fields or banking or other "city" jobs and more towards traditionally "women's" jobs in "caring" roles I.e nurses and teachers.

Basically, pay inequality is not cause by there being a higher rate of pay for men there is not a 2track system for salaries, but there is (by preference for older partners -likely cause by girls maturing socially faster that boys) good sense choices about higher earning/older partner in a relationship staying in work and a lack of role models in higher paying jobs, a difference in the sum of wealth of each gender.

This is hardly a new thought of phenomenon, specialist workshops,
Tours and activity days have been in primary schools and secondary schools to try to entice women to higher paying "maths or science" based roles for decades.

The lack of women in board rooms is not (solely) because men don't want them there.
There is a hell of a lot of social factors there.

And yes,
My point is to be successful you need to stay in school, work hard, not take time out to raise kids. (That's what most successful high paid women seem to do -and what most high paid men see to do).
Or to put it another way, marry someone younger and less qualified and it'll make sense for him to give up work!

No, many women who haven't had children still find themselves discriminated against in the workplace once they reach a certain level

You can have all the workshops in te world teaching women how to conduct themselves for "success", but as long as men don't see women as leaders and worthy of the same pay they won't get any further as it is still men in those decision-making positions

I don't think marrying someone younger is the key. How about free universal childcare? Company creches? Better support for women going back to work? That way you don't restrict women's choices to either marrying someone earning less than them or screwing their own careers if they choose to have kids. Working within the male-focused career structure is not really working for women, is it? So change the structure.

Your post reads as victim blaming to be honest

Really fucking annoyed me actually op

Women want babies.

Women often shack up with baby provider.

All is good .

Have kids , work , money and fatigue comes into play and it can turn to shit ( sometimes ) as like it or not women are trapped . So are the men too !

Plus you make some assumptions that today's women are educated with high self esteem . Not sure where you got that from

Plus where do you read this ? Relationships board? Obvs . But where else ?

Just to say OP

For your first internet thread you have taken quite a bashing !

And what solid gold said . We are doing well and there is much more to be done

And yes I can teach my boys most definitely

Today was how to use the handheld dyson , baby steps ! (They are young.....)

as long as men don't see women as leaders and worthy of the same pay I was under the impression it was now a legal requirement to not discriminate on issues of gender. Hence males and females in the same role and same responsibilities get paid the same. A company who had previously paid a make exec £250k hiring a woman and saying she was only work £100k would attract attention. At that senior kind of level, in part due to women having taken time out) there are less female applicants. (When there are equal applicants with equal experiance it will be easier to see equal representation?)

Free childcare, company crèches and better support to allow women to get back to work?
(I don't disagree these things are needed) but they still don't answer the question of why the expectation is that women will sacrifice their early career life. Or why often it's not due to expectation but common sense that women take "time out" as they are the lowest earners in a relationship.
At the point where you've taken time out you've already disadvantaged yourself regardless of gender! Years out mean less experiance, and being passed over by men and women who have not taken time out.
(No, marrying young isn't the only answer), but the point of the post was to say it's not just a patriarchy issue. It's that often men start off older, more experiances with a higher paying job, (have more power) in this situation, then when you do the most obvious thing of the lowest earner taking the time out you re-enforce patriarchy. -let the men who had the power keep said power and actively support them increasing it! (But that was a concious choice at it made sense!)

I'm sorry but the "work hard, don't take time out" line is just a kick in the teeth o those women who have done exactly that, followed the rules, assumed the playing field is level, and still come up against discrimination. It's so much more than just "lean in" bollocks.

"A company who had previously paid a make exec £250k hiring a woman and saying she was only work £100k would attract attention."

You think this kind of crap doesn't happen?

Ha ha! It certainly isn't a level playing field out there in terms of pay.

Unless you've been in a toxic relationship it is impossible to understand how it can happen. I went out with a chap for a couple of years. It started out great but he gradually became emotionally abusive. It was so gradual and subtle I didn't even realise what was happening. I now realise he used to gaslight me. It's made me understand how women end up with wife beaters. Op, you are very lucky this has never happened to you.

I think that abuse happens so slowly that the victim does not see it coming.

I can feel like you are going insane

OP your post made me think. I am a very successful career woman and a lone parent. But I still find myself waiting on my teenage boys, whilst thinking I must teach them to cook and iron. They see me earning a big salary and running round after them at home. I am setting a terrible example, but I need to find the energy to change things before it is too late

Free childcare and company creches to enable women to continue with their highly-paid careers... wonderful.

And who is going to staff them, I wonder?

Its not just young women

Its a mans world and always will be. What women have to do is know how to exist in it, and female solidarity would play a big part in that.

I barely read the relationships board now, its too sad..so many women stuck with mean, selfish, cheating, abusive men and it ALWAYS contains the line "oh he's lovely in other ways" as if thats ok then.

Ive been in a very abusive relationship and find it hard to understand why women don't just leave but then again, we are all different in terms of upbringing, conditioning etc. & I didn't leave straight away when I should have. I hear "its not the 1950s" used quite a lot when women appear to be almost doormats so to speak..but really I don't think women nowadays have it any better than a 50s housewife. Women are expected to carry a far heavier load. & the amount of controlling financial abuse that seems to go on alongside other ingenious ways found to abuse women is truly terrible.

Of course there are good relationships. I just wish there weren't so many bad ones, some of the stories are haunting and I do think women must take some responsibility for not bailing out, especially when raising DCs in hostile atmosphere. Its always the abusers fault. But remaining a victim sometimes seems a comfort zone choice, for material things and company. You can sit there all day long getting your face busted with your DCs tiptoeing round the house in terror, arguing here & there that "oh well its abusive men's fault". Yes, it is - but its not a reason for putting up with it especially when you have choices to make for your children.

But still..the devil doesn't show his horns when he walks up to you so they say - many men are very good at playing the prince charming soulmate role when they want a woman & I believe thats how so many women get "caught" - most women don't willingly go with abusers...that starts later down the line often when DCs have come along

So many different aspects to this

OP I think you ask some interesting questions.

I am always when I hear my successful, intelligent mother - who comes complete with doctorate and long career of uni lecturing, who left a philandering husband and raised two kids alone in the 80s and 90s when being a divorcee was still a negative label - still see marriage to a man as a holy grail and having children as the pinnacle of one's life. Anyone who does not subscribe to this is in some way deficient.

I was at watching a colleague in her late 20s get ready to meet her equally successful mother, also very senior in an august Scottish university, making sure she never went out without her hair done and make up on as her mother would give her a lecture about not looking good and being presentable for her man. Said colleague also was practically forcing her poor DP down the aisle, completely fixated on having a wedding and keeping house for her father whenever she went home as that was the expectation they had of her. She was the one who caused them problems because she went to university and wouldn't stay home and get married. This in 2014!

I've been discriminated against for being a woman, for being pregnant, for being too young and too old. For not being a certain shape or conforming to some archaic norms. I have seen friends take off wedding rings for interviews so they don't get pre judged and I've heard male directors openly question women on their child bearing hips and when they plan on being pregnant.

Equally I have experienced discrimination by other women. At the time I despaired because if a woman couldn't get it and not judge me for nothing other than being a woman, what hope was there to change the attitudes of those men who remain in the dark age? There was research done at Erasmus Business School in Rotterdam about women in the workplace deliberately keeping other women from succeeding and what a problem this was. Are we sometimes our own worst enemy?

I also think feminism does suffer from a bad image and the expression itself turns people off. I personally prefer looking at things under an equality banner but acknowledge that much of my ideas could easily fall under feminism. There is a lot of terminology out there too which can confuse people. The message is very simple but sometimes drowned out amongst all the other labels.

My own mother, who fought for equal rights for herself and others in the workplace couldn't pass on the same values at home. I hope I have fought hard to break the mould. There is nothing wrong with marriage or having children of course, but what values do we teach? There's a real responsibility to ensure our sons and daughters don't succumb to the crap in the media or peer pressure at school by being role models ourselves.

It's certainly a whole lot better than it was but there's still a way to go.

I was recently reading online about how to ask for a raise. It was all the usual stuff, until eventually I discovered some studies that show that the techniques used by men to negotiate raises often work against women. The techniques recommended for women amount to being submissive, almost begging, even down to entering the room quietly, head tilting, framing questions like 'I would hope that...' and 'I hope it's alright that...' Basically displaying a lack of confidence, opposite to what they like to see in men. And then of course you have a TED talk businessman advising women not to ask about raises at all, but to just 'have faith' in the company to do right by them! I will try to find the study am if anyone wants it, just realized how late it is!

*Sorry if I appear to have gone off on a tangent there with my raise talk! Yes, I agree that we still have a long way to go. I also agree that supporting women is one of the most important things that needs to happen. Solidarity. I think that's why other movements have seen better progress (It's 3am and I've just realized I'm knackered so I may not articulate this as well as I'd like) - very few people of a minority race, very few gay people will try and align themselves with 'the other side' as women do with men. Very few would try and throw a 'But what about the whites/straights??' spanner into an otherwise constructive conversation to try and throw it off course. I can't imagine many individuals announcing that the civil rights movement/gay rights movement are wrong/evil/only for people who can't get laid. It's hard because we are so enmeshed with men. We give birth to them! But just as it's said that the fates of developing countries will partially lie in how they treat women, we need to treat each other better if we are going to make real progress - celebs included; they are scrutinized, compared to each other, rewarded with attention for hurting each other, it's a blown up version of real life. I think that as soon as women are kind to each other, things will get better. Have to go to bed now.

I help out a lot of childcare however I have to admit I am the other way round as I don't do a lot of chores. I work and dh is an sahp. I think the sahp should do the majority of it as they are at home.

Free/affordable childcare - Finland does it and enjoys one of the highest rates of female employment (and gender equality?) in Europe. Both parents are encouraged to take parental leave, meaning men are more involved with babycare and also removing the automatic assumption that the woman is going to sacrifice her career.

Who would staff them? In the UK, probably women initially, yes, if that's what you're getting at. And it's not just for highly-paid women, it's for everyone, unemployed parents included. But if more men are involved at a babycare level, more women are more equally employed, that could then eventually lead to shifts in general attitudes to 'womenswork' and equality overall. Nothing happens overnight.

"I find it hard to understand how confident young women, secure in their own skin, do not see through abusers more quickly"

Unfortunately, most young women are not confident and secure in their own skin.

We are bombarded with what a girl should look like from an early age. Young girls are called pretty from the minute we are old enough to have a look. We have baby dolls thrust into our arms from the age of two, we are bought toy kitchens, toy hoovers and the like and we see our own mothers running around cleaning after lazy fathers and holding the family together when they would have been better off leaving!

We are defined by how we look and how slim we are. We are called fat when we are not, ugly when we are not, we are defined by how popular we are at school rather than how successful we are.

We then grow up and make the same mistakes with our own daughters.

Yes some girls go on to be happy and secure in their own skin but it is not the majority in my opinion.

Whilst its better than it was 50 years ago, It's still very much a mans world in my opinion and I can't really see that changing any time soon.

You do replicate what you know a lot of the time. I was brought up by a mother who was the highest earner, never saw her run around after my dad. I have grown up and I am exactly the same. I have a few girls and none have shown an interest in dolls or household toys but I expect it is because they don't see me as that type of person.

Some of the most beautiful, outwardly self assured young women I know (including my own teenage dd), when you scrape the surface, are very much products of our image obsessed and pornified culture

Insecure, troubled, expectations of what a relationship should be like way off beam