to think -women, what´s gone so wrong?

[isaidlesbonotasbo]

Long time lurker, can´t sit on this one any longer.

Fifty years ago I and many other women fought for equality and womens rights. After a long struggle the western world conceded (OK, only up to a point, still a way to go), but things are so very different now.

Fifty years of books, magazines, tv, movies, pop music, education, the internet, showing us very different templates of how womens´ lives can be.
So why do I read here every day of young women who have chosen lazy, abusive, controlling, or selfish partners. Women who apparently must have such low self esteem that they think they deserve no better? Women from all parts of society.

And not only the pleas from the women who have just woken up to the situation they are in, but almost worse the everyday asides from seemingly contented women as part of other topics, which casually mention how OH, DH, DP ´won´t´or ´can`t´ do such and such, or relly´helps´, or spends endless hours and money on his own hobbies.

Sometimes there´s almost competetive banter re how ¨useless¨ their partners are, bless ´em!

Put aside the very real problems of leaving such relationships once stuck in them, why start them in the first place with all the choices available to us? We don´t have forced or compulsory marriage/partnership. Last time I looked, the Taliban were not in charge nor religious leaders all powerful.

And if the answer is that girls and women are socialised within their family of origin to feel worthless, let´s push the question back at their mothers and grandmothers - feminism did not start last week!

(and don´t get me started on who plays the biggest part in raising,
socialising and entitling these men from their early years....)

A lot has improved, though. There are no longer marriage bars in jobs. We can get mortgages and loans and buy things without having to have a man to countersign it. I think probably a lot more women stand up against domestic violence because it is less acceptable now and there is more help available - it looks like more women because we hear more about it - 40 years ago, a lot of women would have put up with it, because they didn't know how to get away from it, and so many cases would have gone unreported - plus there was no legal concept of rape in marriage till the 1990s,.

A lot of things are a lot better - there's still a long way to go, but don't forget what has been achieved.

creambun. I agree that some women have been trained in childhood. You refer to being brought up that way. I get that, my concern is that after fifty years of feminism why are girls and boys being brought up that way, and are we, women, not part of that bringing up? It´s not as simple as blaming women, it´s seeing a big problem around us, and trying to work out the factors that may be driving it and how to effect change.

electra. I am asking a question on a comment fórum, not pronouncing góspel truths about womens´ lives. nd believe me, I have gone wrong plenty of times.

Fuck's sakes. Glad you had a crystal ball OP when it came to.picking your partner. I didn't.

Your OP blames ME for HIS abuse. Screw that crap.

And now I will RTFT

It is often a cycle through the generations that people replicate. Abusers can s

No need for people to get so angry with OP surely? What about her other points? Not just the abuse one?

Apologies for cut off sentence. Abusers can see characteristics in their victims very early on and I am all for changing mens behaviour but at the same time with support women can gain more confidence and be less likely to be drawn in by these men.

OP, did you really think that thousands of years of patriarchy could be overturned within roughly a century?
Sadly, it was never going to be as simple as everyone waking up one day and going 'Hang on, women are actually people too, the world is not divided biologically into male masters and female servants.' The whole history of feminism isn't just three steps forward and two back, more like three forward, one back and two off in different directions. But (at least in most of Europe) women have come a long way. We are no longer property, we can work, drive cars, own our own money, live alone, etc. Yes there is still a long way to go but we are still going.

exactly SGB - 'we' continued a fight started well before us that will continue well after

finger wagging doesn't help at all

OP, people are being 'defensive' because your first post basically implied that women in abusive relationships were somehow to blame for them.

Because all the work you and your mates did in the 70s have sorted every thing out for us all, and given us so many amazing choices that we're somehow letting you down by consciously choosing men who treat us badly.

It is appalling bullshit. I am gobsmacked that anyone who wants us to believe she has been at the barricades for feminism for years could have such a narrow view of women's lives.

SGB thank you for your comment. No I did not think that we would achieve Paradise overnight!

Do you think that perhaps the biggest barriers to be overcome in future may be the psychologicaal ones? The world around us has changed a lot, and quickly compared to historical times,but have we, or can we?

SGB

I think yours is the most apt comment. But do you think we have stalled? I think that's what the OP is getting at. Most of what we've done since the 1970s is iterative, not revolutionary.

^(and don´t get me started on who plays the biggest part in raising,
socialising and entitling these men from their early years....)^

Uterus holders, creating the patriarchy since the dawn of humanity. Bastards.

So, no woman abuses her male partner, then, OP?

How intriguing to think that feminism began in the 1970's!

Lime- many thanks for expressing something so clearly that I was obviously failing with. Yes, the crux is have we stalled, and why. And does that why include looking at ourselves, or can we only blame men/the patriarchy.

Is it nature or nurture? I think that is part of the question the OP is debating. Complex issues.

Nobody chooses to be in an abusive relationship, though many of us know people (men or women) who have been in then. My alcoholic BIL was an abuser of his lovely wife, and hence she is now his ex-wife. I don't blame her at all for dumping him. Their relationship did not start off that way though. BIL's background is far too complicated to explain fully here, but they did not have abusive parents. They had normal parents who were happily married for life and loved their children. Their other two children (my husband and his sister) are totally different. Not abusive and have never been in abusive relationships.

Sometimes I wonder how the difference came about and have a few vague theories. BIL does have rather an addictive sort of personality, and alcohol dependency. Alcohol completely turns him into a monster and when he starts he has no stopping mechanism. It is the only explanation I can think of. Also, their Mum when she was alive (died last year) was always very defensive about BIL, brushed all of his problems under the carpet and liked to put about that he could do no wrong, sun shone out of his arse etc. etc. You get the picture. She would often go into complete denial about what he was like and was always very uncomfortable if a situation occurred which made her confront it. She did occasionally admit that she was frightened of him, and she tended to favour him a lot. Perhaps all came together to enable him to be the person he became. I don't know. I suppose there is no simple answer.

I'm not trying to wind anyone up, or insinuate anything. I find some of the threads I read on here about abusive relationships totally horrifying.

Academic models of feminism bear no realtionship to real life,or partners women chose.feminist ideological battles about models and rad fem is a distant middle class construct.has kittle real life impact
Real life relationship draw from society,culture,upbringing,class,to shape behaviour and relationships. Often indivuduals mirror familial norms

I benefitted from equal pay legislation,etc,battles someone else fought.but i dont feel i have to be beholden or justify my choices,in case it lets down a distant abstract other

I think women still under societal pressure to guve up work,raise kids,be financially deoendent upon make partner

I worked in forensic MH for years with violent/sexual/domestic violent offenders and agree with the OPs point at 19.13pm but not many of her other points.

I will make it clear now that the responsibility for abuse ALWAYS lies with the offender. Always.

But these men, like it or not ARE part of our society. They are our lovers, sons, brothers, friends. They are with very few exceptions not bizarre aberrations that just spring out of the ground.

I don't think for a second that this is the nature of men nor the nature of women to tolerate it.

But something is very, very wrong in our society and we need to work together to try and identify what it is and try to address it and the idea that men will do such and such and women will let them pays a diservice to both genders.

I think the OP in a cack-handed way is saying that as women we are part of this society with influence in many ways and accepting the paradigm that a lot of men will abuse and women will tolerate it because they're ground down by men/socialised to do by a patriarchal society is damaging because as women we ARE part of that society and not just helpless observers of it.

I suspect people are going to continue to insult the OP but I'm going to talk because I really want to talk about this!

I think it's a bit similar to the debate between the African American generations in the US (which I've been privy to). The earlier generation put up with horrific legal and physical violence and responded with great courage to get legal change, including access to education, for the next generation. Some are fairly disappointed with the younger generation, who then seem to waste it by, for example, doing poorly in school.

The reality is that if a law says you can't go to university, you can campaign to change that law. And let's be clear, "campaigning" meant enduring violence and beatings and maybe death, not just waving a few banners. But if hundreds of years of psychological indoctrination says you can't go to university, it's not clear how to effectively fight that.

Feminism seems like it's in the same place but even worse because racists can live without minorities, but misogynists can't live without women. Women will always be offered a "socially acceptable" path that doesn't threaten patriarchy because they are still valued and needed. So it is ever going to be "bad enough" to get past this final hurdle? And if not, at what point do individual women need to be willing to sacrifice for the greater goals?

If women support patriarchy by giving up work,doing all tasks,its a v risky strategy
Leaves them financially deoendent upon man,and with limited job prospects
But to read mn,if women talks about working ft with baby/small child she pilloried by other women.statistics and quasi research are routinely trotted out on mn that working harms pre-schoolers.

OP, if you don't know why men abuse and why women find themselves trapped in abusive, read some books. There are plenty out there exploring the psychology of abusers and their victims.

As for feminism stalling, that's just rubbish. Feminism is growing, spreading across the globe and addressing more and more issues. However, neither women nor feminists are of a hive mind and people will always moan about their partner's imperfections. It doesn't mean that feminism has stalled. It just means that we are real imperfect people living in a real, imperfect world.

I haven't seen that to be the case at all on MN, tribeca

My mother was the ultimate career woman - so I had nannies. Who were not feminists. She
also refused to do any housework etc so we had cleaners. Female who were also not feminists. I spent an awful lot more time in the company of nannies and cleaners than I did my feminist mother
Take your own conclusion from that.

But despite that when I entered my current relationship it was on the proviso that everything was 50/50 including bins/DIY. And it was.

Until maternity leave, when as I was at home it made sense for me to do the domestic jobs that could be easily done with small child in a sling or clinging to a leg. And there it starts, because to fight back from that position when you go back to work is very hard.

And now I'm a SAHM due to dd1 having some issues and we seem to have slipped into some 50s division of labour. Dp does bins and DIY and I do everything else, because it works.

And then if you are not very careful you are collecting DPs dirty underwear or mugs, and just being the house elf....

OP I don't find your post remotely offensive, I think you pose a very important question. At no point do I understand you to be having a pop at victims of dv but people will take offense at whatever anyone writes on a MN forum especially AIBU even though its obvious none is intended. I for one welcome a discussion on this subject and have to agree that sadly most of us start off with good intentions of putting up with nothing less than absolute equality of labour in our relationships - only to find that life happens and compromises (normally from the woman ) are made, 'just for an easier life '.. I really do agree about us looking after/taking responsibility for ourselves. For me, this would start with educating young women over and over again ad nuseum that having a baby WILL NOT make him 'stay/grow up/love me it will make it ten times worse ...and that there are currently over ten different methods of contraception, use 1,2 or even 3. and plan your family. If you still have an accident get the morning after pill. If after you have known your DP for a good few years. Make a joint decision to have a family. If you don't have an independent income, get married, don't listen to any crap about not being ready for commitment, a baby is a life's commitment and our laws shaft unmarried mothers in the event of a split. You are prepared to carry your child together, he can do his bit by providing your family with all the legal rights. In essence teach young women to value themselves. I have spent a life time in the endless cycle of child and family social work where boys bought up in dysfunctional abusive households 'learn'.how women are treated and girls often believe that having a baby to love will make a loving family with a man they barely know. All the above will not stop dv in its tracks but getting into a healthy respectful relationship and out of an abusive one is hellish hard enough as it is , but having baby/children to care for at the same time makes it so much worse and reduces woman's economic and social power almost from the start.