to think -women, what´s gone so wrong?

[isaidlesbonotasbo]

Long time lurker, can´t sit on this one any longer.

Fifty years ago I and many other women fought for equality and womens rights. After a long struggle the western world conceded (OK, only up to a point, still a way to go), but things are so very different now.

Fifty years of books, magazines, tv, movies, pop music, education, the internet, showing us very different templates of how womens´ lives can be.
So why do I read here every day of young women who have chosen lazy, abusive, controlling, or selfish partners. Women who apparently must have such low self esteem that they think they deserve no better? Women from all parts of society.

And not only the pleas from the women who have just woken up to the situation they are in, but almost worse the everyday asides from seemingly contented women as part of other topics, which casually mention how OH, DH, DP ´won´t´or ´can`t´ do such and such, or relly´helps´, or spends endless hours and money on his own hobbies.

Sometimes there´s almost competetive banter re how ¨useless¨ their partners are, bless ´em!

Put aside the very real problems of leaving such relationships once stuck in them, why start them in the first place with all the choices available to us? We don´t have forced or compulsory marriage/partnership. Last time I looked, the Taliban were not in charge nor religious leaders all powerful.

And if the answer is that girls and women are socialised within their family of origin to feel worthless, let´s push the question back at their mothers and grandmothers - feminism did not start last week!

(and don´t get me started on who plays the biggest part in raising,
socialising and entitling these men from their early years....)

OK there was a fair proportion of the wave of feminism that I think the OP was involved in (Second wave in late 60s/early 70s) which was about predominantly white, predominantly middle class women having more rights and more opportunities within capitalism and industry. A lot of women in that era wanted interesting jobs, real careers, money and power and there is nothing wrong with that. Even at the time, other feminists and other women had other priorities - access to abortion and effective contraception, equal division of household work, an end to racism, rejection of 'femininity' etc.
Feminism is, at its absolute core, the insistence that women are human beings and not the second division of humanity which exists to serve the default human beings ie men. Feminism is basically a battle to be fought on many different fronts, and it's not entirely surprising that different feminists pick different fights - no one woman can deal with the whole lot at once, and there are different issues to contend with if you are white/non-white, poor/well off, brought up by reasonably kind and supportive parents/grew up amidst violence and chaos. Etc.

Because believing that you can have a different life is a really big idea and one that's hard to hold onto. I'm working with undergraduates from 'widening participation' backgrounds and lots of international students. Their determination to get to university is inspiring. The way they balance working and studying is fabulous. Their skills to take that into the labour market are what's lacking. So they've the idea and the dream but not all of the tools. And I think that's a big part of the battle still raging. You can tell a girl she can be anything she wants to be but unless she has the tools, is confident and articulate she can't make that a reality. And for many here in the uk they don't have access to the dream even. It's not just here though and there are some great things happening around opening the bubble but we've a long long way to go. So, as a flawed feminist with a son and a daughter I want to equip them with the tools for them dreams and the space to dream them. I have the incredible luxury of being able to offer them that. Others don't. Check out this from the Humans of New York guy, kind of makes my point life.indiegogo.com/fundraisers/let-s-send-kids-to-harvard.

life.indiegogo.com/fundraisers/let-s-send-kids-to-harvard

windchime. many men are abused by their female partners, but generally speaking in less physically damaging ways. I did not refer to this in my OP as was trying to keep it a reasonable length, and focus on the issue concerning women.

alwaysstay- again you express my intention more clearly than I did. I will not accept that we are merely helpless observers. In some sense I believe there is often a form of consent in our transactions, and I am questioning where that comes from. I read the relationship thread and it breaaks my heart and angers me in equal measures.

limegold. but I would argue, for instance that with regards to women enormous numbers do go to university etc. These women are not immune from falling into abusive relationships, or simply just putting up with mens´ everyday low level shit.

tribeca. I am in no way a Radfem, and would not recognise feminist theory if it threw a Doc Martins boot at me. Germaine Greer was my limit academicwise. But I am a woman and have always wanted things to be fair and equal for everbody.

Someone said something like -- you can`t be given freedom, you have to take it.

The personal is political, but we need to work out how to make the political personal in our everyday lives as well.

To an extent, the OP's initial points highlight one of the areas of differing opinion within feminism: the mix of male violence and male entitlement.
Some will say that real feminists should just reject men as sexual/romantic partners entirely and cut themselves off from men as much as they can.
Some will say that they believe in 'equal rights' but simultaneously believe that women and men are really, really different: men are aggressive, sex-mad and undomesticated whereas women are good at feelings and cleaning the toilet and they like it that way really.
SOme will say that the answer is legislation to ensure that men do their share of domestic work and childcare.
Some will get all waa, waa about the idea of women who WOHM paying other women to clean/cook/childmind and use this as an example of Bad Feminism (because good feminists look after their own children and clean their own toilets in between bouts of smashing the patriarchy, because feminists still need to be aware that a woman's role is to benefit other people and not herself...)

Numerous threads on mn pillory ft childcare,cite likes of biddulph
Its unusual to have a neutral thread about preschool childcare.
Routinely women will berate other women on mn about strangers raising their chidren

How patronising Patchworkpatty.

Ten types of contraception? Well i never!

I agree with patchwork patty as that is second nature to me due to my upbringing. It isnt how some women have been brought up though so how can you change something so engrained?

Dione. I do not know why men abuse. Could you direct me to some definitive explanation as to the cause of this behaviour? Also, knowing the cause, what are men actively doing in schools, offices, factories, pubs, football clubs etc etc to put a stop to it. What are naice MN male partners who wouldn´t hurt a fly doing to stop it?

I do understand how women become trapped in abusive relationships, and the difficulty, but not the impossibility, of escaping from them.I have been profesionally and personally involved in facilitating them.

On every LTB thread on MN relationships a torrent of practical advice and support is given to help women and children leave sometimes life threatening situations. What I am saddened by is the difficulty women have with overcoming the psychological barriers to leaving, and am asking why after decades of feminism - and yes, I know it did not all start with me on June 1, 1963 or whatever- does this come from.

I must admit I like Patchworkpatty's post. Says much of what I think but was struggling to find a way to express clearly. Not at all patronising for me.

I didn't see the OP as offensive either. I can, however, see how some of it could have come across differently to people who have experienced abusive relationships first hand (I haven't, but have seen from the sidelines as one developed).

Am I a feminist? Yes, insofar as I would like to see equal opportunities for all women who want them. I'm not radical about it though. I'm hard working without being the archetypal career woman. I like what I do. Much of it has been dictated by how our lives have panned out, and I am happy with my lot.

If the OP is asking why women seem to be complicit in patriarchal norms, the answer is that women are just as patriarchally indoctrinated as men are. Women can be just as sexist as men. Women are rewarded by the patriarchy for acquiescing - they're 'brought up that way', it's 'engrained' as many PPs are saying. Look at Women Against Feminism, for example.

There's also a hell of a lot of misunderstanding, intentional or not, about what feminism actually is and does. Which is why people can bandy about terms like Feminazi and get away with it.

In my own personal opinion, feminism lacks an overall driving force or clear mission - it's splintered. I see far too much infighting within the ranks (see any feminists on Twitter, for example), libfems hate radfems etc. So I think the most feminist thing you can do is to stop fighting (hating, slating, blaming, policing, disapproving of) other women.

That's not saying there's no room for debate, differing views or goals, or that intersectionality should be ignored; far from it. But I don't see how we can do all that patriarchy smashing if women don't act in support of each other. Let's face it, women fighting women is the patriarchal wet dream. Half the media is given over to inciting either jealousy or hatred of women.

So that's where I've started, anyway. I'm not always perfect though, it's quite difficult!

I've had this discussion with women. How much is it a choice to go out to work and run a home. It isn't in many cases. It's done out of necessity. Years ago a lot of women were happy to stay at home and a lot of them truly had the life of Reilly. Now this option isn't open to many. It's a great modern con. Great opportunity work full-time come home and do everything your mother or grandmother did as well. And they call this progress.

Who calls that progress?

Well done for completely minimising male violence and abusive behaviour OP.

Many women do not have the same privileges, opportunities and understandings as you. Something that seems to have passed you by.

As have the dynamics of an abusive relationship. Despite your claims to have been involved I this area (you aren't Erin Pizzey are you?)

You are coming over as a bit smug and supercilious.

I think its fairly obvious I did find the OP offensive I wasn't going to add anything further but I really need to add this... I was NOT a 'vulnerable' women 'bought up that way' like a predestined victim for some kind of male monster. I BECAME vulnerable during the course of the relationship obviously, but out of the two of us I can categorically assure you that HE had the issues that caused the relationship to become abusive, not me. These 'type of men' don't hunt down suitably vulnerable victims! It's such a warped way of viewing it, unless you experience it its very hard to understand. Even when you have experienced it its very hard to understand. I never believed that what he did was OK because I thought society, family or friends would in any way support it, I did what a lot of victims do and hid it. I stuck with it for as long as I did and "took" it because it was abusive and fucked with my head. I think you are looking at that side of things from a very strange stance, abusive relationships are just that, abusive, whether between partners, parents and children, what ever. I don't think the instances of when it is a male abusing a female partner should be separated out to be included in a 'feminist discussion' in this way. Some of the comments on this thread, in my opinion, are horribly naive.

I don't think it is a naive view. It is one commonly held in literature and professional practice.

I call bullshit. You must have read it wrong, or not read widely enough.

Op feminism has created a choice for women, whether they op for a career or not, they are their own person. Shock horror, some women like being stay at home mums, and it's their choice. No man is perfect, like no woman is, so Prince Charming ain't out there, you have to compromise, if you love your partner, acceot certain flaws. No I don't mean put up with an abusive or lazy dick, but my DH does not like cooking, and I do, so I cook. He can be very undomesticated, but takes care of the finances, running of the house, and DIy.

Yes we do assume traditional roles as dh field is high earning, whereas mine as a community worker is not, so it makes financial sense for me to stay at home, the cost of chikd are for 2 children is very expensive. If dh earned less than me, he would stay at home, it's just worked out that way.

There are more abusive men than abusive women (to partners, at least). This is not an issue with women, it is a problem with men, and something that needs to be changed in men, rather than saying that abusive men should just carry on and women should learn to be ok with being single (or start relationships with other women even if they are heterosexual) to enable that. Why are you demanding that women change something that is a problem with men? Do you think we don't have enough to do?

have just lost long post answering different points, and it´s late where I am so cannot do it all again. Thanks to those that got what I was trying to say, sorry for any unintended offence, this was my first ever internet thread! good night

Yy Woodlice. The problem is abusive men, not abused women.

In your OP you put the onus back on mothers and grandmothers for the lessons they teach. Why not put the onus on men and the lessons they teach? Why are men not teaching their children how men should behave? Where is their responsibility in this?

Equal pay is the key for equal rights IMHO.

If you're working a full year in addition till, rather ironically, international women's day (the 8th March) to earn a man's yearly salary, you aren't equal.

Everything is marketed and geared towards this extra 20% disposable income that unattached men have, and until women earn the same as men women won't be taken seriously financially, and that means seriously in any and every decision about their lives. Money speaks.

Unfortunately it seems to be true that women are judged as not having a "valid" voice as we don't have the same financial clout as men.
We aren't seen as equal until we have the same amount of money as men for the work done.

We must continue to fight for our rights. Equal pay is at the top of my list for that fight.
enhanced and fair paternity leave etc, so that men can and are expected to take an active and proactive role in the nurturing and care of their children.>

woodlice. Was on way out of here whenI saw your post which is a complete travesty of my posts on here. In fact there is not one iota of truth in your whole post.

Nowhere have I denied that abuse is a problem with men, nowhere said that abusive men should just carry on and women learn to be ok with it, nowhere said women should learn to be ok with being single or start relationships with other women, including even heterosexual women. WTF!

Suggest engage brain before typing. Why the fuck are you so weirded out by my op that you have to resort to a pack of lies

scallops, I did not say men have no responsibility for bringing up their kids, I said women have a very considerable influence during the early years. Why cannot people understand that suggesting one thing does not mean that is the only possible option.

Maybe the next person to tell me what I said would like to quote the actual specific words at me..instead of just making stuff up.