I've moved the 'goal posts' and DH is struggling.

[MyballsareSandy]

Quick background - we've been together nearly 30 years, married for 20, two DCs in early teens. My job since having kids has been very part time and flexible, and I have been very happy to get on with most things at home, as I have had the time, whereas DH hasn't.

I did all the financial stuff, food shopping, most of the housework, some of the gardening, most of the kids school stuff, helping with homework, running them around, our social diary, holidays, helping elderly parents ..... etc etc.

DH cooked a couple of times a week, did the dishwasher occasionally, did a bit of gardening occasionally. His massive contribution to our household has been DIY - that's his thing and we've gradually extended and completely redone our home, mainly done by him.

Anyway, we get to now. An opportunity came up at work for longer hours, meaning more time in the office (London commute, approx 3 hours round trip, sometimes more depending on shite trains), more money, more responsibility. I jumped at the chance as the kids are more independent, at secondary school, quite able to come home alone and sort themselves out until one of us gets home. DH agreed it was a good opportunity and said he would 'step up' at home more.

Unfortunately it also concided with him going self employed, setting up his own business, which has taken up a lot of his time, understandably.

But I've become resentful and frustrated that still most of the stuff at home is down to me. Admittedly the kids are lazy and that needs addressing, one of DH's bugbears, but he doesn't do enough, he really doens't get it. He tries, but its crap, and I'm finding it hard to live with the chaos.

We're snippy with each other and tetchy, neither of us seeing each others side. He said this morning that I've changed and I'm not as laid back as I was, and the house is always full of tension these days, while he's doing his best to build up his business for the family. WTF!

I text him earlier saying let's have a 'family meeting' later and discuss how things can be improved, with all of us mucking in and doing our bit. He replied 'not much point, as my view is rarely listened to, I try to get the kids to do more, but you get upset if I raise my voice ... all this softly softly shit isn't working with them'.

We do have very different ways of parenting, and becuase I have always been here much more than DH, that is what the kids are used to. I do get results, I try not to yell and scream. DH's preferred method is to begin softly softly over nicely, then rage.

Jesus. long post, thanks for reading, we've always had a good relationship but I can see it going tits up as I'm losing respect for him .

Sorry play the whose busier game.

I think you should cut him some slack. There have been some big changes for all of you recently and IMHO I think if you have managed the house for twenty years without his input then he will struggle to start helping out in the way you desire at first.

In life I really think some things just aren't worth fighting about. Hire a cleaner on a Monday morning so that your house is in order at the start of the week.

Don't let the children laze around, get them involved, you are preparing them for the world of adulthood (if they complain)

Most chores only take ten minutes max to do anyway.

Don't berate your dh if he doesn't do things to your timescale or standard

It sounds like you have a good marriage don't let this spoil things!

The description of "effective delegating" being deciding exactly what jobs need doing and when and how well just sounds bloody exhausting to me. It's not the work, it's the thinking about the work.

No. Designate an area, but then everyone in the house still has to live in that area - it's OK and not pushy/picky to say stuff like "Do you think the floor in the bathroom could be cleaned a bit more regularly, because it makes me feel a bit sick to see all the hair and dust". or "I noticed the toilet has started to smell like wee, do you think you can sort it out ASAP?" "I noticed there's some mould growing on the tiles."

It's fine to point out - stuff which looks awful, stuff which makes you feel stressed/unhygienic, stuff which is making your life harder or could cause damage (e.g. the mould, also I'm in charge of laundry and DH gives me a heads up if he's running low on socks). It's not fair to nitpick over the kind of cloth he uses, whether you've seen him don the Marigolds frequently enough, etc.

Looking at your list...

Presumably most/all of the kid related stuff simply no longer exists. They're teens preparing for GCSEs, they shouldn't need mummy helping with homework except very occasionally. What's the public transport like where you live - if they can get themselves to activities on the bus then that will free up parental time too.

And then there are a bunch of things you could do online. I'm thinking food shopping and your social diary. Could you do these during your train journeys? (Maybe your DH could too, but you specifically said you commute by train).

Then you'll still have tasks which have to be done at home, but there won't be as many of them.

You need your family conference no matter who objects to it.

You and your husband are both working long hours out of the house. He is also building up his own business which must be stressful and demanding.

It looks to me as though neither of you now has the time for the housework, but each of you thinks that the other must do more. It won't work.

Perhaps don't broach it in the mode of "family meeting" as such. In my husband's family at least that was a euphemism for "have a pop at everyone" time and got people on the defensive straight away. Instead, perhaps when you are all sitting down to dinner together and hopefully in wind down mode, you could casually say "I am wondering about the idea of getting a cleaner to help with the housework because I appreciate none of us really has time to do what needs doing properly. What do you all think?"

Assuming that they like the idea, then point out that although it will help reduce the burden of expectation on everyone, it will also necessitate a basic tidy up the day before so that the cleaner spends time actually cleaning, and you would appreciate their help with that. Be careful though that you don't take that as far as my late MIL used to. She would clean her house from top to bottom before her cleaner arrived, and then clean it from top to bottom again after her cleaner had finished and gone. She was such a clean freak that way, even though her cleaner was very good. Say to your family that you hope that will put an end to some of the stress and allow you all proper downtime again / kids to revise for GCSEs in peace if applicable yet. Carrot & stick, sort of.

Your children do need to do a bit more, but if they are doing GCSEs or A Levels then it could be tricky.

I think the kids should still do housework even if they are preparing for GCSES. The only time I was let off when it was literally the exam weeks and I was holed up in my room revising like a demon!

It's not like they need to spend hours slaving over a hot hoover. Its a quick empty the bins, empty the dishwasher (and put away, what kind of moron doesn't put away?!), stack the dishwasher, change your sheets sort of thing. I'm thinking 10 mins of their time (for one of those tasks, not all!).

I think yes you do need to agree a new "normal", and that should probably involve a cleaner.

I suspect half the problem is that he has no idea how much you do. It's actually not a bad idea to write it all down. Then go through it together and see how much you can reduce down that list. My DH was brilliant at this, it really engaged his problem solving brain. Corners will need to be cut, you'll have to compromise below your normal minimum standard perhaps, but go with it. Once you've cut it to the bone, think about apportioning it out. If realistically you (plural) don't time to do it all (including getting DC involved), get a cleaner.

I agree about carving out different areas of responsibility and leaving his areas alone by and large. You need him to approach this as an adult and therefore you need to engage him in an adult-adult way, not parent-child. He is already posturing as child, pushing you into parent ("no one listens to me anyway!") But you need to counter by staying in adult role, as opposed to parent. This should in turn push him into adult role too. And don't engage in who does what until you've had a more generic discussion.

You discussed your change in job circs and he agreed to step up and do more. Was that before or after his decision to go self employed?

I don't really want a week's worth of dishes left around until the weekend.

This is key here imo.

The question is- does he?

I'm a 'let it get dirty then give everything a thorough clean' person whereas dp is a little and often person. He doesn't like that I'll leave dirty stuff out I don't like that he never deep cleans. He is the cook in the house so the kitchen is his domain so it becomes his call.

Well, for me, part of the delegating is that it has to be done at x time. So bathroom, expectation is that it is cleaned every week, which includes doing x and y (spell it out, does it include hoovering/washing the floor? Or just cleaning the loo?)

For teens, a time cut off helps, so stack dishwasher after dinner, doesn't mean anytime before bed. Making wi-fi chore dependent is a good one too.

Another way is to allocate a time, eg sat morning and say everyone all hands on deck, here is the list, as soon as it is all done you are free! Everyone ticks off as you go.

As to eg bed - well, I like it made because I like the duvet shaken, and it isn't comfortable otherwise. But if that isn't the case, you can challenge your own pre-conceptions, why do you need to make it? Can it be a job that falls off the list? If not, you have to work out for yourself why and then explain it to dh.

A few whole family rules helps eg everyone takes all their stuff from living room/hall/stairs UPSTAIRS when they go up to bed, and takes their dirty mug etc to the kitchen. Family habit that makes life easier overall

The problem with delegating to people who don't give a shit about the state of the house is that they see the individual jobs not the big picture. If DS1 does the washing up he will do THE WASHING UP and he won't empty the plughole of bits of crud and potato peel, he won't clean the sink, he won't wipe down the dranining board. If anyone hoovers that is all they will do - if the sofa is covered in crumbs it won't occur to them to brush the crumbs on to the floor before hoovering it up. They will empty the bin but fail to pick up any bits that might get dropped on the floor. What the OP needs is another adult who can see the big picture and mop up all the little bits in between so that there is a concrete noticeable result and the home is more pleasant to be in. And her H is signally refusing to take his part in that.

I text him earlier saying let's have a 'family meeting' later and discuss how things can be improved, with all of us mucking in and doing our bit. He replied 'not much point, as my view is rarely listened to, I try to get the kids to do more, but you get upset if I raise my voice ... all this softly softly shit isn't working with them'.

Is he right? If he's putting in a 12 hour shift and then getting bitched out when he tries to help, I can hardly blame him for being pissed off.

he asked me if I wanted him to do the dishwasher .... why even have that conversation, the dishes need doing, we've both been at work, I've cooked.

So? If you've historically been the domesticated parent, can you really blame him for checking what needs doing with you? If sounds like even when he tries to help he's causing an argument. All it needs is a simple "yes please" or "No, don't worry, it's the kids turn tonight"

I agree he's out of the house a long time, but so am I! I leave approx the same time, often home later, except for one day working from home. Paperwork isn't every night for him. So is it fair that I get in and crack on with stuff while he reads the paper or watches tv?

That depends. You've spent the last hour and a half relaxing on a train. Has he had a couple of hours buffer to regroup, or has he walked in from work and immediately been bombarded with kids and chores?

I wouldn't actually do it, but if I did write up a list of what needs to be done at home on a regular basis, I think he'd be stunned, or think I'm making work, one or the other.

Why wouldn't you do it? It's clear that you have a mental list of things you want done, and that his idea of things that need doing is not the same. Without a list he's never going to meet your expectations no matter what he does, and you'll always find things he missed.

Make the list. Then sit down, as a family, and go through it. Assign jobs to everyone. Be prepared that some of the things you consider essential might not be considered so by the rest of the family, and be prepared to give a little on them.

Irianway - I hear what you are saying, but to me that is part of the teaching and delegating.

When I was growing up, we took turns to wash up. My mum's rule was that the washer upper had to leave the kitchen as she (mum) would expect to find it. That meant clean sink, all surfaces wiped down (including cooker) and everything put away. If that wasn't done, job wasn't done.

Same with other jobs - hoovering included moving the sofas to hoover under the edge/behind, and doing the cushions on the sofas and brushing crumbs onto the floor.

hoover and dust a room, means dust first, bits on floor, tidy from the top down, hoover last.

It isn't rocket science, but it does actually need to be learnt at some point, it isn't automatic, no job is.

While it is annoying to have to teach an adult to do this, I really do think that sometimes we have to take the whole 'he/she should know better' out of it and just say it - if you do the hoovering, please do the whole job which includes...

I do actually think the kids are key here.

You work long hours, so does he.

Yes it's unfair that your attitude to the house is 'well it has to get done even if it's 7pm' and his is 'well I just don't have time or energy for it' but actually if your secondary school age children just unloaded the dishwasher, cooked once a week each and shoved a wash on as well clearing up after themselves you'd be in a far better position.

I have three teens too - two are very lazy and messy and one is a domestic goddess so I do understand trying to get the lazy ones to do anything is a battle.

Link it to their monthly allowance or whatever you give them or flat out offer them money every week to do the above chores properly?

This ain't worth wrecking a mostly happy 30 year relationship over!

I think that there is perhaps some information missing:

both you and your DH leave at 6:30 - 7am,
DCs are old enough to get themselves awake, washed and fed before taking themselves to school?
(and yet somehow not old enough/responsible enough to manage to not leave stuff everywhere or to help with chores?)

You have a 1.5 hour journey to work, on the train to go into London. (so you're in work for around 8:30?)
your DH has a ?? minute/hour journey to work, and he gets there ???

Some time later, (assume 8.5 hours so 5) (depending on the trains) you have an 1.5 hour journey home. So you get in around 7... (at this point the DCs have been home by themselves since 4? 4:30? and haven't managed to do any chores?)

I don't think that kids should be treated as if they are some sort of personal slaves for parents, but there is nothing wrong with teaching them some responsibility. That house work needs to be done. they could at least start pre-paring dinner.

So is it fair that I get in and crack on with stuff while he reads the paper or watches tv?
The key answer to that question really lies in how much free time inside the working day your DH gets...

If you've spent 3 hours over the day, sat down on the train reading a paper or a book, whilst your husband drive 15 minutes to work before his 11.5 hour working day, then why should he not be able to have a tiny bit of time reading a paper?

If it were me, I'd set out what jobs need to be done, and when they need to be done. (for me the "most important" jobs are eating, and not leaving the dishes on the side to create an insurmountable mess, and create a schedule around that... Other stuff, like laundry and hoovering can wait to the weekend.)
e.g. Monday is DH's "turn" to cook. and DC1's "turn" to load/unload the diswasher.
Tuesday is DC1's "turn" to cook and your turn to do the dishes.
Wednesday is your "turn" to cook and DC2's "turn to load/unload the dishwasher.
Thursday is DC2's "turn" to cook and DH loads/unloads the dish washer.
Friday you get a takeaway.

Saturday/Sunday you play by ear depending on who's doing what, (and if someone shirked their "job" during the week, then they get a chance to "catch up" on their turn at the weekend...
Perhaps you and DH take it in turns with one cooking one cleaning...

Assuming that both you and your DH can leave the house for 12 hours a day and that life would carry on with barely a blip, or thinking that you'd both be gleefully rushing in and getting on with chores when you get back... well it's just not going to happen.

I do think women often make a rod for their own back. They take on the responsibility of doing everything and then when they do need help they moan things are not done the way 'they' want them done.
I often hear friends say - 'its easier to do it myself then it is done properly'
They don't expect their children to help - they never teach them what to do or how to do it!
Then when the woman gets a job like in this case and needs everyone to muck in,..they have a meltdown that no one is doing enough or not right.

You DO have to lower your 'standards' and you can't do the same as before.
It is probably best to get a system of everyone helping before it is actually needed.

Saturday/Sunday you play by ear depending on who's doing what, (and if someone shirked their "job" during the week, then they get a chance to "catch up" on their turn at the weekend...
Perhaps you and DH take it in turns with one cooking one cleaning...

This sounds like the way to go. Easy to sell to the kids in the context of "We all need to put some work in to keep the household running, but you can have the weekends to yourselves as long as you pull your weight during the week" - done properly, there's no reason why you should have more than a mornings work for the weekend.

Yes, I didn't intend to suggest that kids get away scott free. I assumed that they already did jobs like changing their own bedding and stacking their plates in the dishwasher after a meal. Mine are made to do those every day and are called back if they try to sneak off without doing it forget.

What does "admittedly the kids are lazy" mean? How little are they doing? Agree with all the posters who've said you've made a rod for your own back here - but for different reasons. Your kids sit around while you and your husband work 12 hour days and then clean around them? Wow! I know mumsnet is a little "in my day, we walked uphill both ways in the snow" but that's seriously shocking. Is unloading a dishwasher really such a burden to a teenager that it's worth divorcing over?

And I agree with him re the family meeting. You should have agreed it together and then had a family meeting with the kids.

Please ignore all the people name calling your husband. The best advice ha been repeated a few times: split out the tasks, get a cleaner and drop your standards.

limegoldfinewine

Your last paragraph is absolutley spot on here.

I absolutely think you need a mediator myballs, as you're not getting anywhere without one are you?!

I've worked as a mediator in cases just like these- shared house and different responsibilities with a job change thrown into the mix.

You need to find your common ground, redefine who you all are and how you're going to live together with your new situation.
To be brutally honest I doubt you are going to be able to navigate this patch without an impartial facilitator, especially if passive aggressive sulking and resentment is on the menu.

Mediation is a very inexpensive way to forge a new family identity, and to learn a new way of communicating, and it will do your kids no harm at all to see how the process works, and that they're respected as family members and expected to come up with their own solutions about how they can help the situation.

Contact your local family mediation services. They're cheap and worth every penny.

OP you've posted before about how you're a very softly softly parent and that your DH hasn't always agreed with that approach.

When you were the one running the house and dealing with the DCs all day, then your approach is obviously going to come out on top. But now that things have changed, his view ought to have equal weight to yours if you want him to have 50% responsibility and input too. If he feels that you have let the DCs be lazy about taking responsibility for things and now he wants that to change, then he is entitled to take that line with them.

Personally I think you are mad to go back to work full time at the same time as your husband goes SE and think that you can just juggle everything between you. You have X years of practise at running a home to fall back on, he does not. Get a cleaner, outsource the ironing, pay a gardener to come once a month to do a tidy up - and enjoy some of your precious weekends together.

My DH will often leave things in a pile on the worktop after he's done the washing-up. it eventually dawned on me that it wasn't his laziness, but that he didn't actually know where they belonged because I'd always done it when I was a SAHM. It's taken a while, but he knows where most things live now.

I have not read all of this. But I think you have failed your teenagers by not teaching them to do all household chores. They should know how to cook, do all cleaning and laundry. They are able bodied.

My 6 yo and 8 yo children empty the dishwasher every morning. I cannot remember the last time I did so. It is their job. They do not put the mugs away (cannot reach) but put everything else away.
Every morning and evening they feed the dog. Feed the fish. Weekly they tidy (a bit) their rooms. Put away their clothes then i put the 6 yo's away properly My 8yo knows how to put on a load of washing.

If my primary age children can do these things I am sure your teenage children could too. And some more. As pp have said -
a) get a cleaner to take up the slack from both of you changing your jobs
b) get your DCs to take more responsibility. They can easily be trusted to cook an evening meal, clear the kitchen, do the dishwasher, do some laundry, iron, clean, dust, hoover, do the bins. You may decide not to give them the entire household chores - but they certainly should be contributing something. Especially if they are to be functioning adults at somepoint in their lives. If not they may grow up believing it is just "wife work".