I've moved the 'goal posts' and DH is struggling.

[MyballsareSandy]

Quick background - we've been together nearly 30 years, married for 20, two DCs in early teens. My job since having kids has been very part time and flexible, and I have been very happy to get on with most things at home, as I have had the time, whereas DH hasn't.

I did all the financial stuff, food shopping, most of the housework, some of the gardening, most of the kids school stuff, helping with homework, running them around, our social diary, holidays, helping elderly parents ..... etc etc.

DH cooked a couple of times a week, did the dishwasher occasionally, did a bit of gardening occasionally. His massive contribution to our household has been DIY - that's his thing and we've gradually extended and completely redone our home, mainly done by him.

Anyway, we get to now. An opportunity came up at work for longer hours, meaning more time in the office (London commute, approx 3 hours round trip, sometimes more depending on shite trains), more money, more responsibility. I jumped at the chance as the kids are more independent, at secondary school, quite able to come home alone and sort themselves out until one of us gets home. DH agreed it was a good opportunity and said he would 'step up' at home more.

Unfortunately it also concided with him going self employed, setting up his own business, which has taken up a lot of his time, understandably.

But I've become resentful and frustrated that still most of the stuff at home is down to me. Admittedly the kids are lazy and that needs addressing, one of DH's bugbears, but he doesn't do enough, he really doens't get it. He tries, but its crap, and I'm finding it hard to live with the chaos.

We're snippy with each other and tetchy, neither of us seeing each others side. He said this morning that I've changed and I'm not as laid back as I was, and the house is always full of tension these days, while he's doing his best to build up his business for the family. WTF!

I text him earlier saying let's have a 'family meeting' later and discuss how things can be improved, with all of us mucking in and doing our bit. He replied 'not much point, as my view is rarely listened to, I try to get the kids to do more, but you get upset if I raise my voice ... all this softly softly shit isn't working with them'.

We do have very different ways of parenting, and becuase I have always been here much more than DH, that is what the kids are used to. I do get results, I try not to yell and scream. DH's preferred method is to begin softly softly over nicely, then rage.

Jesus. long post, thanks for reading, we've always had a good relationship but I can see it going tits up as I'm losing respect for him .

What are the children doing to help? They should be doing simple stuff like emptying the dishwasher at the very least. I taught my DSs to iron their own school shirts in their early teens - originally it was to earn back the cost of a replacement travel card at £1 per shirt but they seem to have forgotten this.

re-reading your OP it does seem like it's not so much he isn't doing anything but that he isn't doing it to your exacting standards or to your schedule. If you want something done to your standards and schedule, you have to do it yourself.

I text him earlier saying let's have a 'family meeting' later and discuss how things can be improved, with all of us mucking in and doing our bit. He replied 'not much point, as my view is rarely listened to, I try to get the kids to do more, but you get upset if I raise my voice ... all this softly softly shit isn't working with them'.

Does he have a point...? Obviously everyone needs to pull their weight but I wonder whether you need to lower your standards a bit and let them.

Time to train up the kids.

My opinion, based on everyone I know: if you want your teenagers to learn to naturally keep a house tidy and get on with housework and housekeeping they have to see all the able adults doing it, especially the ones not at home or who traditionally would be considered exempt. One adult might do more kitchen based housework, another the laundry, but one shouldn't be doing the cooking, DIY and pairing socks while the other cleans the kitchen and bathrooms and does all the dirty work, including picking up the other's dirty clothes and plates.

If he wants well organised children, first he has to demonstrate daily good habits. For a good few months. Saying and expecting nothing while you both also stop the sniping and bring back the happy home feeling.

You have my utmost sympathy!!

I've been at home for 17 months but started back at work last week and already my DH is noticing just how much things are going to have change now that I'm not home as the default parent, shopper, cleaner, organiser etc.

After 17 months of him having a very easy ride he's forgotten how to function as a contributing adult to the home.

We've talked about it, had mini arguments about it and we have decided that our solution is to get a cleaner

Hey op

Blimey that's long days. No wonder he hasn't done all the cleaning. I think you are under estimating the time a job takes and over estimating what can be done comfortably in the time available.

You seem to be remembering what you used to do but apply it to now. And applying a generous load of guilt to yourself. Now is different. New rules needed.

Write a list of jobs. Decide which are red (must be done), Amber, (should be done), green (nice to be done).

Reds and ambers need allocating to a person. Red is priority on entry to house. Amber just done that day by bedtime.

It's also not about lowering standards. It's about achieveable standards. Ten jobs half done and house will look shit still. Five completely done it will do.

And if you're getting a cleaner, I do t think you are absolving him. Your helping him. Curious but why does it absolve him but not your kids? You didn't include them.

Given how short of time you both are, I think he has a point. Bet there are more important household chores he could be doing (washing/ironing/cooking/shopping).

As for bathroom, YABU in our house. Does cleaning it involve changing towels/bathmat (not in our house, that's under laundry)? Wash floor or hoover? (in kids bathroom you have to wash floor as they miss the loo quite often, in ours hoovering fine)? Does it include scrubbing at grout and polishing taps (I think only occasionally, dh considers this essential). Replenishing loo roll/soap etc (I think yes, he thinks this is done as part of unpacking shopping).

Really its better to go through in quite a lot of detail and agree.

I would sort out what the kids need to do and get that sorted first. If your DH sees you stop going soft on them he may be more prepared to meet you half way.
You all need to make this adjustment so I think a family meeting is a good idea.
Your DH probably feels you should have got the kids to do more even when you did not NEED them to - so now you do need help it may be a battle with them.
My DP used to be really irritated that I did not get my teenagers to do enough to help and we did have arguments about it - and on reflection I think he was right.
To be honest - with your DH starting a new business, you should be focusing more on the kids helping than on him - but you DO need a family meeting.

Congrats on the new job!

I know people think getting a cleaner is a cop out but we've had one for 10 months and it is working v well. We're much less stressed with each other.

We do a big tidy the day before the cleaner comes so she can get to things to.clean them. She does the floors, bathroom etc. We still have to do all the day to day cleaning, tidying up.

If you got a cleaner all the big jobs would be done and you can delegate the remaining laundry, dishwasher, cooking, shopping between you and your teens.

barbarianmum you said "Given how short of time you both are, I think he has a point. Bet there are more important household chores he could be doing (washing/ironing/cooking/shopping)."

sorry i dont see your point given you aren't going to be able to do any of those tasks in the 30 seconds it takes to throw the quilt over the bed and plump the cushions.

Hey OP, i sympathise. I am in the same position although H has improved a lot recently.

My objection to co-opting the kids in to do the jobs are two fold:

1. H is the grown-up. He should take responsibility for this long before the kids do. Demanding they do it is pure evasion on his part.
2. Making the children do their jobs (and well enough) is just another chore which I'd be willing to bet will fall largely to you. And no SHOUTING and raging at them isn't the way to go about it.

Of course there is compromise to be had - I have learned to simply not look at the mess (it's not easy - a chaotic house contributes to my anxiety and depression) and accept that my priorities are not neccesarily those of everyone else. And H (and to a lesser extent the kids) have stepped up to the plate a bit more.

And...... one result of my being the bloody charlady in my house and DH being a lazy arse, is that the one child who does help without being nagged is DD. Hey for sexual equality

It sounds to me like there are two issues here. Firstly, there's the issue that there is more work than you can manage on your own. There is no magic bullet to this, unless you are very wealthy and can buy in all the help you need. The answer will be a bit of each of these: letting go of some tasks that don't really need to be done (classic example - duvet covers don't need to be ironed), your DH stepping up to the plate and doing a few more things properly and without constant supervision, your kids having a calm routine in which they know exactly what they are supposed to do around the house and in which they are not rewarded if they don't complete their allocation (hold back that pocket money/weekly chocolate bar!), and the pair of you deciding to get some help with a few jobs (perhaps a couple of hours a week with a cleaner, or doing the shopping online so you only have to put it away, for example).

However, there's a second issue here to do with your DH's attitude. He seems to want to palm off all responsibility for chores onto your children, instead of accepting some responsibility himself. There is absolutely no excuse for not doing household tasks properly - it is not rocket science to empty a dishwasher or to wash a floor, and it is sheer laziness not to do it well. I absolutely do not buy the 'he doesn't get it' argument - it's in his interest not to 'get it', because he won't be asked to do anything if he does a poor job. I feel frustrated on your behalf that you're having to deal with this - my ex was like this, and it was exhausting, demoralising and frankly emotionally awful to have to bear the weight of feeling that everything around the house was my responsibility. Not all men are like this - my DH does a great job around the house, and he also works long hours at a demanding job. Your partner needs to see that it isn't just about parenting, but that he actually needs to contribute practically at home, however long his hours are.

I have much lower standards than you, OP, and completely agree with your DH about making the bed. Also, you really don't need to hoover more than once a week, especially if everyone is trained to always eat off plates!

I went back to work a year ago and I only do 3 days. However my children are younger and DH is away a lot and works crazy hours.

The first thing I did was get a cleaner who comes twice a week and someone to do my ironing.

I do think when both parents are working very long hours then it just makes sense to out-source the dull stuff so you can actually enjoy your time together as a family.

But I would make your children do some chores and also discuss with your DH what you both need to do in order for your home to function to a reasonable standard.

Getting a cleaner absolves him!

Er yes that's the fucking point!

We both work Full time, dh away all week and me at home but working.

My teens have part time jobs and exams. In all our down time we like to have fun.

Why in earth would you want your house and marriage to become ax war zone?

Marriage and time together is actually supposed to be fun!

Get out sourcing the jobs and spend your down time relaxing and doing fun stuff.

X post mrsCampbell apologise.

He wounds rather nasty to the children. The answer is not that they do more (their job is getting good GCSE results). The answer is sunny Jim taking sole responsibility for more tasks - send him a list, tell him those are his jobs.

We both always worked full time in 20 years together so always did as much as each other at home. It worked by having some tasks you do 100% of eg he did 100% of washing and putting clothes away. Worked for me...

I think my point was because it is such a small and minor job, him doing it isn't actually going to help the OP much, esp if it means a fight to get it done.

It matters (very much) to me that our bed is made daily, not at all to dh. So I make it. As you say, takes 30 seconds. Dh cooks dinner (taking way more than 30 sec) because it really does need to happen so he has to make time. Meanwhile, I sort bills and do laundry.

OP, how does your DP like things? When you are the one responsible for cleaning and tidying then you get it done how you like it. To an extent your DC have to do it how you like it. But your DP should get a say. If he is happy to let washing build up and do it all in one fell swoop (eg at the weekend), why should he have to do it your way? If you want him to take equal responsibility for housework, he has top get an equal say in how / when it gets done.

You draw up the list of jobs together. You both agree (or compromise) on how often those jobs need doing. Then you decide together who does what. You need to try not to think of it as 'delegating', because that implies that you are still in charge of housework.

I don't really understand how it is fair to say 'we both have to take equal responsibility for housework' and at the same time 'it must all be done on my timescale and to my standard'.

maybe I am assuming that every adult knows how to clean a bathroom or empty a dishwasher
We all learn to do these things. Some of us were taught by our parents. Some (my DP) did diddly squat as a kid and need teaching how to peel carrots (at age 30).

I agree Barbarian - in a partnership you play to your strengths.

It also sounds that the OP's DH had done a bit more than just some DIY if he'd actually done an extension to the house.

Honestly, I just think it makes sense to out source what you can, everyone do a bit of the minor chores, eg making beds, cooking etc and then use your free time to do nice stuff.

If you are working really long hours and have teenagers who are going to be doing exams - it just really isn't worth stressing and arguing over who does the dusting when you can just pay someone else to do it.

But then I write that as someone who is so glad to have gone back to work so I can pay someone to do the housework which I hated doing.

Don't make your life harder than it has to be. Get a cleaner. It isn't a case of allowing your DH to cop out but a question of using resources much more sensibly.

Also, while the words "family meeting" tend to bring about a deep sense of despair in me, there's no reason not to have one provided you agree the terms of engagement first. However, I still think you might do better to look at the tasks that need doing and split them round everyone. Prioritise them too since some jobs always need doing (dishwasher filling and emptying), some jobs need doing less often and some would be nice to achieve but not a disaster if they are left.

Accept that you may have to lower your standards slightly since there's little point in trying to achieve perfection at the cost of quality of life. What's the point in being anxious just for the sake of housework? For nearly 2 years my DH was very seriously ill. I took on all the domesticity. He's now very much better and very willing to pull his weight again. However, he did recently ask if I could perhaps not supervise every task he carries out since it makes him feel useless (he isn't) and I now realise that I've got very focussed on everything being done to my standards. Two of us live in this house. Somewhere along the line we need to come to a compromise. This may well be needed in your house too, OP.

Cut your DH a bit of slack as he's going through a transitional period too with his business. That doesn't mean let him off altogether but accept that you aren't the only one who has moved goalposts/

their job is getting good GCSE results

The OP and her DP both have jobs too. Household stuff is on top of work / school.

send him a list, tell him those are his jobs

That's not him taking responsibility. That would still be the OP in charge of housework.

OP - Expanding on what you wrote up-thread about not being happy if that was him talking to you, how about doing this, as a matter of interest: go through in your mind the kinds of encounters and problems you and your husband have that you've written about here, but this time, swap people,

i.e. instead of you, imagine your husband saying the things you're saying and asking for the things you're asking for, and put yourself in your husband's role, both with hearing what's been said to you, what's being asked of you, and your reactions to both.

It can shed a different light on your interactions, and throw up for consideration things that you hadn't noticed as being unreasonable, or justified, on both sides. It might help you to decide what to do next.

Flower he works crazy hours setting up a new business! And where do you get the he's nasty to the kids

Good grief! Poor bloke.

Op if you Aren't both prepared to pay others to help with the dross then you will continue to argue and play type whose busier game

Not a nice environment. Wouldn't be worth it to me.