to think that having children is not a "lifestyle choice"

[YorkshireTeaGold]

Sooo, saw a thread on aibu where the op complained about childcare costs and was told by another poster that she shouldn't complain as having kids was a lifestyle choice.

I've heard this so many times recently, both on mn and in rl and it massively pisses me off! My father actually told me not to complain about morning sickness as I wanted children.

I have 2 dcs and think that this is just maintaining the equilibrium of the world. Reproduction is a biological need, like eating or survival, it's not like taking up golf or buying a yacht. I can see maybe having no kids could be a lifestyle choice for some, as could having 9. But a couple? Not a lifestyle choice.

Plus it hides a political issue in that it's really difficult to afford to bring up children atm. I did a online check (think it was in the guardian) and dh and I are 75th centile for earnings. However 1/3 of this goes on the mortgage, 1/3 on childcare and 1/3 to barely cover the bills. It's ridiculous that this is the case, and if only people who truely afforded it had kids then it'd just be an elite minority reproducing. The government should organise the country so an average family can afford to buy a house and work.

Those who give in to "an overwhelming hormonal drive" and end up getting pregnant need to get a grip and control themselves. Men have been know to use this excuse to have sex with unwilling women.

We're lucky to have the means to chose whether to have children, not all societies are so lucky.
Creating a child is too important to be the result of a primitive urge.

Anyone else notice that the link to this in active convos is wrong? Directs you to Tiger mums thread

Ender

I quite honestly don't see how you can compare the desire of some women to have a child to men unable to control their sexual urges.

I spent years depressed when I couldn't get pregnant. I had an urge to have a child that I could in no way "will away".

I was desperate. Before that kicked in, I didn't want kids. They seemed expensive and not particularly useful. But in the end it was biological not choice. It's a bit silly to pretend there isn't a very strong biological urge for most people to have children and you can just say fuck it I won't bother.

Creating a child is too important to be the result of a primitive urge.

What is in appropriate excuse to have a child? Other than desperately wanting one?

Yabu!

Having children is a choice. My DP and I are ttc. That's our decision.

We accept that should we be lucky enough (fertility issues, long story) that yes it will mean our lifestyles will be impacted. But it's still a choice we have made.

Can't believe some people are comparing having kids to rape.

Agree with royally, it's daft to say there's no biological impulse and it's a totally rational choice. I loathe the lifestyle that comes with having 2 preschoolers but my life is complete on a deeper level. It's about more than giving up skiing for a few years.

I also think it's an excuse as to why average income families can't afford to live. No one expects a free ride or bonus for having kids but when mortgage and childcare costs are huge and wages are stagnant it's really hard and the economy can't continue like this.

YANBU

I read an article somewhere recently that suggested pregnancy and childbirth is the true endpoint of puberty (yes, puberty) and there may be hormonal health implications for women who never end this process through having a child.

I seem to think that article referenced nuns and hormone problems.

In the same research blitz, I also read an article that claimed pregnancy was not just a one-way process between mother and foetus because there was a case (cancer diagnosis maybe?) where they discovered an embryo/foetus had actually passed stem cells through to the mother which were responsible for her condition going into remission.

So it could very well be that, rather than a biological imperative or a lifestyle choice, having children is far more of a complex exchange between women and foetus/baby that is kinda "baked into the cake" of what the female body expects to do during life ... and to not do it has significant health implications.

All of which, of course, makes me feel like shit since my pregnancy ended in utter disaster.

Sorry to hear that worksallhours

I agree that the body wants to reproduce in more of way than just sex

1. Rape is about control. Not about being desperate for sex.

1. We live in a society that recognizes no matter how much one person wants or needs something that it still does not make it OK to take from another.

So even if a man "needed" sex he would not have that right to take it from someone else. That doesn't mean we pretend having sex is some sort of lifestyle choice. It is a basic urge that people have and most people would say to someone in a sexless relationship that the should leave. They're quality of life would be severely impacted by not having sex. You have a right to pursue it in all legal forms that don't hurt others.

I had a biological urge that meant I needed a child. I needed one. I was suicidal because I could not have one. I have every right to try and have one but obviously I couldn't steal one. But my life was not worth living without one. This does not mean everyone has to feel that way. Some people need very little sleep or food. Or have no sexual interest. Or no interest in children. Silly to pretend everyone is the same and it's some kind of choice for some.

So what should happen yorkshire?

Ender, Creating a child is too important to be the result of a primitive urge.

But what if that primitive urge actually indicates something far more important than we suppose? Why do we get that urge with some people and not others?

It has been suggested for a while now that sexual attraction could be connected to good gene fit, that heterosexuals are attracted to certain members of the opposite sex because something somewhere in your body recognises that your genes and theirs will work together well in terms of potential offspring.

If so, should we really ignore this sort of signal in favour of socio-political factors?

Having children can have significant health implications too remember worksallhours.

Having children is absolutely a choice. It may be a choice that for some, is driven by biological need, but not everyone who chooses to have children has that biological need, they make a choice.

And even where people do have a biological need, they still have a choice. I think it's ridiculous to absolve adults of their responsibility for their choices by saying it's a need. It isn't. It might be a very strong desire, but it isn't a need.

Plenty of people that feel that strong desire don't have children for various reasons, same as people who have a strong desire to have a lifelong partner don't get that, or people who are naturally sociable don't always end up surrounded by friends.

I think there's a lot of sense in enders comparison.

I know women who have had second children after the first nerly killed them.

Must be because they wanted an excuse for a 7 seater and to park in P&C

Haha 26.2miles, I don't actually have a solution!!! Id love to have easy answers to difficult questions but that's why Russell brand exists.

Well firstly, I'd like people to stop saying having dcs is a lifestyle choice. I agree there's an element of choice but it is a lot more complex than that.

I'd also like to see more child friendly economic policy, state childcare does seem like a good idea as does more investment generally to up wages.

Rather basic, I'm afraid but I'm making a cottage pie atm.

You are reasonable to say that it is a psychological drive, and that there would be no humans if no one had children. Having said that, of course some people want kids more than others and feel that need more strongly. We also feel the drive to have sex, but we control it and manage it, hopefully. With excellent contraception, no one really needs to have kids unintentionally, Yep, people stuff up, but they still chose to do the deed. I'd say it's a choice.

Of course YABU.
You choose to have dc.
Or, in the other thread you are talking about, you choose to have them so close together that the childcare costs are very high for 2 yrs rather than spreading them out over, perhaps 4 years, which other families choose to do.
I know there are statistical exceptions, but contraception now gives adults the choice about if and when to have children, so of course it's a choice.

It's absolutely a choice. You choose to get pregnant, or at the very least you choose to keep it if you find yourself in an unplanned situation.

I can't think of many things that I want less than a child. Aside from my lack of desire to have one, there is no way that I could afford to support one and I don't have any kind of support system outside my DP as my family live miles away. Remaining childless is my lifestyle choice.

Of course it is a lifestyle choice. There are enough other homo sapiens procreating to give you that freedom.

Having 10 kids is a lifestyle choice, so can be having none.

WooWooOwl, yes, of course, having children can have significant health implications. I do not dispute that.

I guess what I was trying to say was that we still do not know enough about pregnancy and birth and its impact on the female body to be able to directly state that having children should be seen as purely a lifestyle choice and nothing more. What if, in physiological terms, pregnancy and birth is part of the matrix? Like developing secondary sexual characteristics or menstruation?

I can't believe how many people here are going with "it's a choice" with no qualifications to that statement.
I grew up in the 70's and I don't think I was brought up to feel I had a completely free choice whether to have children or not. I think it was expected by many people, especially in my family, that I would do at some point.
And I feel I've had more choices than many in my generation.
We have such a long way to go in relation to equality for women before most women will truly feel they have a free choice about how many children they have or whether to remain child free.

Yanbu
Only in our culture would children be considered s life style choice. Maybe because we lack a sense of society these days.
Certainly in my dh's culture children are seen as a necessity. No one would ever be questioned as to why they had children or why so many.

Of course it's a lifestyle choice, nobody has to have children. Nobody does it for anything less than selfish reasons.

Contraception is widely available, methods can be used together so no pregnancy is an accident.

Yes, but in some cultures children are seen as an insurance against infirmity in old age. Not so in this country - or at least it wasn't sadly the current government seem hell bent on turning back to the clock.

There are too many people in the world and the means is at our disposal to prevent them being born. Why should be not question people who choose to have an unsustainable number of children? People bang on about their rights without thinking of their responsibilities.

The Pope needs to get his act together on this issue. He has more power to do something about it than any individual in the world.

Maybe people just have a different understanding of the word "life style choice" because to me it means Getting a 4x4 vs hybrid vs taking the bus. It's nothing to do with the urge to make a new human.