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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that having children is not a "lifestyle choice"

437 replies

YorkshireTeaGold · 21/01/2015 12:19

Sooo, saw a thread on aibu where the op complained about childcare costs and was told by another poster that she shouldn't complain as having kids was a lifestyle choice.

I've heard this so many times recently, both on mn and in rl and it massively pisses me off! My father actually told me not to complain about morning sickness as I wanted children.

I have 2 dcs and think that this is just maintaining the equilibrium of the world. Reproduction is a biological need, like eating or survival, it's not like taking up golf or buying a yacht. I can see maybe having no kids could be a lifestyle choice for some, as could having 9. But a couple? Not a lifestyle choice.

Plus it hides a political issue in that it's really difficult to afford to bring up children atm. I did a online check (think it was in the guardian) and dh and I are 75th centile for earnings. However 1/3 of this goes on the mortgage, 1/3 on childcare and 1/3 to barely cover the bills. It's ridiculous that this is the case, and if only people who truely afforded it had kids then it'd just be an elite minority reproducing. The government should organise the country so an average family can afford to buy a house and work.

OP posts:
HeeHiles · 21/01/2015 14:51

The need to eat is a here and now necessity, 'if I don't eat I will die'. How many people when deciding to start a family honestly give a thought to the preservation of the human race?

Not now no, but roll on 50 years - there are no young people, only pensioners, no one working, no one paying taxes to feed and home all the elderly - That's when it will be a necessity - but our human instincts urge us to create life so that scenario doesn't happen.

So not an immediate need, but a need nonetheless.

OnlyLovers · 21/01/2015 14:53

It's a Thatcherite ideology to assert that having DCs is a 'lifestyle choice'.

It's extreme neoliberalism that's not to many steps from advocating eugenics

I think that statement is a manifestation of Godwin's Law.

ProveMeWrong · 21/01/2015 14:59

I think it's fair to expect having children to have some impact on your lifestyle. E.g. You can't go on a luxury spa break with them in tow very easily, or ride a motorbike, or cross country ski for a fortnight (well I couldn't).

But is it fair to trot out this line and actually mean, "by having a child, you sacrifice all rights to complain about the cost of raising a child", then no, absolutely not! The child will impact more or less on your lifestyle depending on the country you live in, or even the area of the country you live in. That's the unfair bit basically. You chose to have a child, but you didn't choose how to tax that child.

If I choose to employ a cleaner and I don't like the way I have to pay this out of my net income, then I think I have a right to complain, the same as a parent should about the same thing happening with their child care providers. It is unfair! In France, tax breaks are given to those who employ someone else. Not sure of the details but that seems like a good starting point to me!

LilMissSunshine9 · 21/01/2015 15:01

Frankly speaking if you are planning to have a child and do not consider the impact it will have on your lifestyle and finances and then spend your time moaning about the cost of it all afterwards then yabu really. Surely couples when planning to have a child consider whether its more affordable for both to go back to work and cost of childcare, only one to go back to work etc.

Obv the above does not mean a single parent before I get jumped on.

Miggsie · 21/01/2015 15:06

Having children is a choice - for SOME people, in SOME parts of the world.
For some women who are living in a forced heterosexual partnership society where being unmarried is a sin, then having children is seen as your DUTY and defines you as a woman.

In our society if we had no children then our civilization would die out.
The older people would have to work to support themselves as there would be no younger generation to do this.

Many men probably think they are childless - but they actually are not, they are simply not active parents.

I chose to have DD, 100 years ago, unless I was celibate I would have had multiple children, because I wouldn't have been able to refuse DH if he wanted sex with me.

Don't say children are a lifestyle choice: a car is a lifestyle choice and so is a dog. Children are an investment in your own and society's future.

To all childless people, my child will be paying taxes that fund your pension, so good for you I made that lifestyle choice, eh?

skolastica · 21/01/2015 15:08

The government is not family friendly. The emphasis is on the economy, not society. Most of the 'lifestyle choice' voices are unthinking mouthpieces for government rhetoric.

Kewcumber · 21/01/2015 15:08

Kewcumber What about foreign investment in the housing market? That doesn't distort prices at all?

Yes of course it does I didn't say the mortgage rules was the only thing to affect house prices. But foreign investment only has an effect on high end property in London although it does also has a ripple effect of course it still doesn't seem to be the reason for the average increases in house price across the country which were happening before foreign buyers entered the market in any serious numbers.

Probably the biggest culprit in house price increases was the shortage of supply over demand, failing to build new housing stock along with the relaxation of the mortgage market. There's a very interesting report by the Joseph Rowntree foundation on this in 2011 if you're interested.

"Unsustainable house price booms are more likely to develop if there is an underlying shortage of housing. The balance between housing supply and demand is the fundamental long-term determinant of house prices. A cumulative backlog of housing has been created from persistently inadequate levels of new supply."

They also recommend caps on loan to value ratios and salary multiples.

ArcheryAnnie · 21/01/2015 15:10

To all childless people, my child will be paying taxes that fund your pension, so good for you I made that lifestyle choice, eh?

Honestly, even if you hadn't had any children at all, I don't think the UK would have been a childless wasteland in 40 years time.

Also, about the thought of getting a pension at all.

squoosh · 21/01/2015 15:12

'To all childless people, my child will be paying taxes that fund your pension, so good for you I made that lifestyle choice, eh?'

That's needlessly bitchy. How many childless people do you think will have contributed taxes that will fund your pension?

fakenamefornow · 21/01/2015 15:13

I do read some nonsense on MN.

Unless you were forced into having your children then of course it was a bloody choice.

You make it sound like you didn't want any children but made that sacrifice for the good of mankind. If you had been thinking of the planet and not your own wants, you wouldn't have had any.

squoosh · 21/01/2015 15:14

The idea that people are having children to ensure the welfare of planet earth and its inhabitants is laughable.

People have kids because they want them. Nothing wrong with that of course but don't dress it up as something heroic.

expatinscotland · 21/01/2015 15:14

'To all childless people, my child will be paying taxes that fund your pension, so good for you I made that lifestyle choice, eh?'

Your child may die young, may develop a disability, illness or have an accident that prevents their ever working, may leave the country for good.

What a smug and ignorant statement.

And again, the world is overpopulated. All the government need do is open its borders if it ever needs more taxpayers. There are plenty of people willing to come here.

Kewcumber · 21/01/2015 15:14

'To all childless people, my child will be paying taxes that fund your pension, so good for you I made that lifestyle choice, eh?'

I paid taxes as a childless person at a higher rate for 20 years so that only seems fair as I probably paid for their education. Fair's fair.

ArsenicFaceCream · 21/01/2015 15:14

Choice.

'Lifestyle choice'.

Not the same thing.

Kewcumber · 21/01/2015 15:16

And pensions are just as likely to be paid out of corporation tax or VAT or national insurance than income tax Confused

Should I wander around thanking the local fish and chip shop for their investment in my pension?

Coyoacan · 21/01/2015 15:17

Referring to the idea of having children as a lifestyle choice, strikes me as say that society has no responsability for the well-being of all our children.

How far would people take this idea, should free education be abolished?

merrymouse · 21/01/2015 15:18

Thinking of the Walking Dead, children are both a curse and a blessing in a post apocalyptic society.

HesterShaw · 21/01/2015 15:22

This will have been said loads, but here goes anyway.....there are over 7 billion people in the world - far too many. No one needs to have children to save society or humanity.

HesterShaw · 21/01/2015 15:23

'To all childless people, my child will be paying taxes that fund your pension, so good for you I made that lifestyle choice, eh?'

Smug twattery of the highest order.

LilMissSunshine9 · 21/01/2015 15:25

No but your choice to have a child does impact on your lifestyle choice unless you are wealthy enough to maintain your current lifestyle and cover the cost of raising a child.

Bambambini · 21/01/2015 15:31

I don't think "lifestyle choice" is the right description. Having children was part of the natural cycle of life before we were able to interfere and manipulate the natural outcome. You could say people choosing to interfere in natures plan and choosing to not have children is a lifestyle choice.

Uphigh · 21/01/2015 15:39

I don't think it is a choice. I did not choose to have children, I had an overwhelming hormonal drive. People who break themselves on endless iVF cycles are not making a free choice to do so. People who are made utterly miserable and desperate by infertility are not simply choosing to be miserable rather than happy. People who are happy to be child free have not chosen that, they just lack that overwhelming evolved biological hormonal urge. I used to be one of them. I did not change my mind. My hormones changed.
People who think all this is a choice are failing to realise that they are animals and are animal drives and instincts are what primarily dictate our behaviour. The reason you like mumsnet is because you are a social mammal driven to connect with others of your species.

toomuchtooold · 21/01/2015 15:44

The "it's a lifestyle choice" argument makes about as much sense to me as the "pregnancy isn't an illness" one: factually correct but of no practical interest. Usually when this comes up it's because someone's getting benefits, or not enough benefits, or someone else is scared someone might be getting some benefits and they're paying for it or whatever and it all begs the broader question of what we're willing to pay for as a society. What's the minimum standard of living we're willing to tolerate in our society and what should it include. The way I look at it, having children is a) an extremely common choice b) a big undertaking, a large thing to miss out on and c) how we keep the whole economic shebang on the road. Because of all those things it makes sense for a civilised society to provide for families, not just individuals.
It also takes a bloody long time to do - 20 years - much longer than the horizon over which most of us know what is going to happen to our jobs or health. It's all very well saying to someone "oh you shouldn't have had kids if you couldn't support them" but if we're going to restrict procreation to people with 100% secure jobs, well, it's going to be bloody easy to get school places soon, put it like that...

Iveabsolutelynofekkingideadoi · 21/01/2015 15:52

It's a choice driven by a biological and physiological need.

It's pure twattery to call it a lifestyle choice IMO.

The choice, if it's a choice and not enforced upon anyone to have children is in many cases made during an ideal set of circumstances with the view and hope that the ideal set of circumstances will remain ideal.

No one sets out having children with the view that it's as hard as it actually can be especially in a society that views having children as a 'lifestyle'.

OP YNBU. To the PP who responded about her taxes paying for schooling, my taxes probably go to the same yours do and I'm sure that includes schools.

ArsenicFaceCream · 21/01/2015 16:02

Should I wander around thanking the local fish and chip shop for their investment in my pension?

If you do, Kew, can we come and watch?