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AIBU?

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Original poster

to think that having children is not a "lifestyle choice"

437 replies

YorkshireTeaGold · 21/01/2015 12:19

Sooo, saw a thread on aibu where the op complained about childcare costs and was told by another poster that she shouldn't complain as having kids was a lifestyle choice.

I've heard this so many times recently, both on mn and in rl and it massively pisses me off! My father actually told me not to complain about morning sickness as I wanted children.

I have 2 dcs and think that this is just maintaining the equilibrium of the world. Reproduction is a biological need, like eating or survival, it's not like taking up golf or buying a yacht. I can see maybe having no kids could be a lifestyle choice for some, as could having 9. But a couple? Not a lifestyle choice.

Plus it hides a political issue in that it's really difficult to afford to bring up children atm. I did a online check (think it was in the guardian) and dh and I are 75th centile for earnings. However 1/3 of this goes on the mortgage, 1/3 on childcare and 1/3 to barely cover the bills. It's ridiculous that this is the case, and if only people who truely afforded it had kids then it'd just be an elite minority reproducing. The government should organise the country so an average family can afford to buy a house and work.

OP posts:
LilMissSunshine9 · 21/01/2015 14:09

ArsenicFaceCream I never said people on minimum wage shold not have children. Actually read what I wrote... my point was that it is disgusting to say people should have children because they are the on'es who will pay the taxes for your pensions. Who on earth thinks that when they decide to have a child.

My point has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

Kewcumber · 21/01/2015 14:09

lifestyle choice is a wanky phrase but having children is certainly a choice that you ought to consider the ramifications of before you do it. Undoubtedly huge financial and social ramifications and weigh that up against the gains you make.

Whether childcare should be more affordable/subsidized by the state more is a totally different question.

But I have truly maintained "the equilibrium of the world" by importing a child from a country which struggles to pay for parentless children. I have a recycled child, I WIN [smug emoticon]

If you think having children is about maintaining the equilibrium of the world then you really ought to have done what I did. It was your choice not to.

ArsenicFaceCream · 21/01/2015 14:10

One of the problems I have with 'lifestyle choice' as a way to describe having children, is that it disclaims everybody else's responsibility for childrearing, and puts all responsibility squarely on the mother.

Yes, very very good point.

A narrative to shut mothers up.

squoosh · 21/01/2015 14:10

'One of the problems I have with 'lifestyle choice' as a way to describe having children, is that it disclaims everybody else's responsibility for childrearing, and puts all responsibility squarely on the mother.'

Maybe to some people. I definitely think a man making the 'lifestyle choice' of putting an unprotected penis into a woman's vagina should accept the fact that fatherhood may be the outcome. Obviously, plenty of them don't.

skolastica · 21/01/2015 14:10

As an extension of this attitude (as outlined by the op), there is a rising undercurrent of child hatred, which I find extremely disturbing. I'm certain it's a divide and rule tactic by the government.

ArsenicFaceCream · 21/01/2015 14:12

sunshine so many people are defending an inherently demeaning phrase that is redolent of, as jackie says, something not too far removed from eugenics.

Alpacacino · 21/01/2015 14:12

Using the term "lifestyle choice" is such an awful, materialistic and corrosive way to talk about this subject!

It's not like having a dog or not having a dog, is it?

To argue that "Well, either you plan well to finance your kids' education, or bloody well don't have any! If you can't get your act together and use contraception properly, just get a abortion!" means to not attach any value to human beings safe the value that they manage to allocate to themselves through economic success.

Feelings? Pah! The unique value of each individual and their contribution to society? Pah! Solidarity within society, giving support to all its members and raising standards through better, more accessible childcare that enables parents to work or qualify to work? Pah!

It's a choice in that no-one should be forced to have children, or be seen as not living a complete life if they don't have children, but it's not a "lifestyle choice".

Permanentlyexhausted · 21/01/2015 14:15

I don't think having DCs is a lifestyle choice, but both parents choosing to go back to work after having children is usually a lifestyle choice. So childcare costs are a lifestyle choice.

This is just the sort of smug, myopic, I'm-alright-Jack response that I was referring to earlier. It rather assumes that having both parents go back to work and having to use paid-for childcare is actually a choice. For most it is a financial necessity (to keep a modest roof over their heads) and/or an unfortunate circumstance.

Kewcumber · 21/01/2015 14:16

The cost of house ownership is totally irrelevant to having children. I suspect that the ridiculous increase in house prices happened as a result of relaxing mortgage rules many many decades ago (when I was a gel) which allowed 2 salaries to be taken into account thereby allowing people to get bigger mortgages, and house prices rose, childcare requirements rose proportionately too as did the number of working women (so it wasn't all bad, it broke the cultural taboo about working mothers for example).

But its a cultural thing feeling you have to own your house. It doesn't exist in many other european countries and if we had more secure tenancies then it wouldn't be a problem here either.

ReallyTired · 21/01/2015 14:16

Its me who said that children are a lifestyle choice in reply to a rich woman who wants the govenment to provide further subsidy for her nanny.

Our planet is over populated and you are doing world no favours by having kids. Having children is one of life's greatest pleasures, but our economy will not collapse if the UK birth rate plumets. All that will happen is that immigrant will pay for your pensions. The world birth rate is still above replacement.

Kewcumber · 21/01/2015 14:19

No-one is impressed by my recycled child Sad I thought I'd won the thread. Back to the drawing board...

merrymouse · 21/01/2015 14:19

If it were simply a lifestyle choice infertility wouldn't be so devastating.

Alpacacino · 21/01/2015 14:20

Kewcumber What about foreign investment in the housing market? That doesn't distort prices at all?

101handbags · 21/01/2015 14:22

Reproduction is a biological need, like eating - No.

Alpacacino · 21/01/2015 14:22

I think some people on this thread overestimate immigration rates by far!

Immigrants also don't always stay. Britons emigrate.

30somethingm · 21/01/2015 14:23

Do you think IVF should be available on the NHS?

Permanentlyexhausted · 21/01/2015 14:31

Would that be "the rich woman" who has to pay her nanny more than she actually earns herself, Reallytired?

wishmiplass · 21/01/2015 14:36

I'm impressed by your imported, recycled child Kewcumber! x

Whatever the definition, I find it's usually bandied around on here for the purposes of putting the OP down and implying they are feckless.

Winds me right up.

Jessica85 · 21/01/2015 14:39

It rather assumes that having both parents go back to work and having to use paid-for childcare is actually a choice. For most it is a financial necessity (to keep a modest roof over their heads) and/or an unfortunate circumstance.

It is an assumption, based on the people I know. Many claim not to be able to afford to be a SAHP, but, frankly, you don't need four bedrooms for three people; you don't need a large garden; you don't need to live in a nice area; and you don't need two weeks holiday every year. These things are lifestyle choices. Feel free to make those choices, but don't expect other taxpayers to cover the cost of childcare.

I don't doubt that there are some families who do, literally, need to have both parents working, or lone parents who need to work. Which is why I think that paid-for childcare is only usually a lifestyle choice.

Tbh, a bit of this rant is cos DP is pissing me off because he fails spectacularly to realise the difference between needs and wants, as do many of his spoilt-brat friends.

StainlessSteelBegonia · 21/01/2015 14:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ReallyTired · 21/01/2015 14:39

There are a lot of competing priorities for govement money. Some mothers can not see beyond the needs of their own families.

"Do you think IVF should be available on the NHS?"

Yes, definately. Having a children is a choice that most of us take for granted. I think its fair to allow a woman/couple three attempts at IVF if either partner has no biological children. Being infertile is a medical problem and its fair for the NHS to help. I hope the costs of IVF will come down in the future.

"Immigrants also don't always stay. Britons emigrate."

Immigrants are extremely productive while they are here. If they want to take home their earned income after tax then that is up to them. Immigrants and Britons emigrating mean fewer pensioners in the UK. It frees up housing for the working population. It is up to the recieving country to make sure than any immigrants who have not worked in a particular country have enough to support them in old age.

Britain's population is growing massively. We really don't need more babies.

I have no objections to financial help being given to families who really need it, but having paid childcare is a want rather than a need in many cases. I have no objections to a single mother being given help with childcare. The cost of helping her with childcare is the same as paying for her being on the dole.

However a couple with a reasonable income can either fund the childcare themselves or have one person give up work. It has to be realised that bringing up children requires financial sacrifice along the way. Providing good quality care is not cheap and children deserve the best care. We are lucky in the UK to have nursery vouchers and child tax credits.

HeeHiles · 21/01/2015 14:40

We all eat to survive, no one has a child to survive

So how would the human race survive if we all chose not to have children?

EvilTendency1 · 21/01/2015 14:42

YABVU and a bit of a twat.

Of course it's a lifestyle choice.

squoosh · 21/01/2015 14:42

'So how would the human race survive if we all chose not to have children?'

The need to eat is a here and now necessity, 'if I don't eat I will die'. How many people when deciding to start a family honestly give a thought to the preservation of the human race?

None of them.

ReallyTired · 21/01/2015 14:46

"So how would the human race survive if we all chose not to have children?"

Given that the world's population is seven billion I don't think the human race is in danger of extinction. I also doult that all the world's childless people are likely to remain childless. If we could reduce the world's population then we could all enjoy a higher standard of living.

Wouldn't be lovely if there were no starving children in the world and no child died of easily preventable disease. In some countries people have lots of children with the expectation that not all their children will survive. I am sure that the birth rate in Angola would plumet if people could be 99% that their children would reach adulthood. People need access to affordable health care and education to make this happen. There also needs to be fairer trade between countries.