to think that having children is not a "lifestyle choice"

[YorkshireTeaGold]

Sooo, saw a thread on aibu where the op complained about childcare costs and was told by another poster that she shouldn't complain as having kids was a lifestyle choice.

I've heard this so many times recently, both on mn and in rl and it massively pisses me off! My father actually told me not to complain about morning sickness as I wanted children.

I have 2 dcs and think that this is just maintaining the equilibrium of the world. Reproduction is a biological need, like eating or survival, it's not like taking up golf or buying a yacht. I can see maybe having no kids could be a lifestyle choice for some, as could having 9. But a couple? Not a lifestyle choice.

Plus it hides a political issue in that it's really difficult to afford to bring up children atm. I did a online check (think it was in the guardian) and dh and I are 75th centile for earnings. However 1/3 of this goes on the mortgage, 1/3 on childcare and 1/3 to barely cover the bills. It's ridiculous that this is the case, and if only people who truely afforded it had kids then it'd just be an elite minority reproducing. The government should organise the country so an average family can afford to buy a house and work.

[kaykayred]

TedandLola - Gotcha! Sorry!

[RhubarbAndMustard]

YANBU. I thought exactly the same about that thread OP.

Human's are programmed to procreate in order to ensure survival. This is Mother Nature and is still within us even though the population levels no longer require this. I would equate it to our 'fight or flight' mechanism. We can override it and choose to do the opposite, but its often quite difficult to.

So yes we have the choice and we can rationalise what is best - child or no child. However, the Government should do more to support families and keep childcare costs down so that everyone has the chance to have a child (or two), should they wish.

As the main breadwinner, I am finding it very difficult to justify having DC2 as we just can't afford for my pay to drop to SMP. I am beside myself that we may never have another child and I wish there was more financial support even just to cover the maternity leave period. My biological urge is very much present. I am so far choosing to hold off, but it is very hard.

[Permanentlyexhausted]

It is a lifestyle choice in that most parents actively chose to have a life that included raising children. The issue with it being used as a phrase on Mumsnet is that it is almost exclusively used as a put-down; used to have a dig at other parents who, out of choice or necessity, are doing things differently and are finding one aspect of that difficult to deal with. It is a smug and rude response to another poster's dilemma and doesn't reflect well on the person who uses it.

[YorkshireTeaGold]

I'm still here! Dd is teething and can't put her down. Love the lifestyle I've chosen!

Obv there's a choice to reproducing but, imo it's a weighted one. We are a species that are programmed to reproduce our genes. It's not an abnormal thing or something I've done to match the sofa.

Just wondered how others felt.

[angelos02]

I love it when people bring up things like kids paying for pensions and keeping the human race going. Yup. I'm sure that cropped up in your discussions before deciding to have children.

[rootypig]

no bother Arsenic. I like your connection with all this hard working drivel we're subjected to, very much. There is a really appalling underlying logic, I agree.

Anyway I'm taking my indignation to bed, it's almost 6am here and I have to be up with my lifestyle choice in an hour or two

[morethanpotatoprints]

I think that having dc means you have to make a lifestyle choice.
You need to determine how you are going to raise them, if you are in a couple which of you will work etc.
You have to account for cc if you are going to work.
The fact you may have to change your whole perception on life means you will choose a lifestyle, surely.

[squoosh]

'What about you squoosh? How about "You are the drones; The worker ants. You must not breed, you must serve us, the bloated middle classes..."'

Erm NO.

Bit baffled if you've got the impression that I think people should breed according to their socio-economic status? All I've stated is that I think having children is a lifestyle choice in that it's something that dramatically alters your lifestyle and it's a choice.

How that has been interpreted as 'One child if you earn under £20,000. 2.5 if you earn between £35,00 and £75,000...........' I've no idea.

[ArcheryAnnie]

It is possible to acknowledge most of us on this thread will have probably had a choice, and also to fully back proper support for decent childcare, decent education, maternity leave, healthcare, etc etc. The two aren't mutually exclusive - or at least they shoudn't be.

[Jackieharris]

It's a Thatcherite ideology to assert that having DCs is a 'lifestyle choice'.

It's extreme neoliberalism that's not to many steps from advocating eugenics.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Absolutely AA

[Jessica85]

I don't think having DCs is a lifestyle choice, but both parents choosing to go back to work after having children is usually a lifestyle choice. So childcare costs are a lifestyle choice.

[BringMeTea]

YABVU. Don't think anyone said it was 'abnormal' but is IS a lifestyle choice. And it IS motivated by wanting to 'have your own baby' not to generously offer the world the next generation of plumbers/nuclear physicists/burger flippers.

[ArsenicFaceCream]

How on earth is anyone reading 'children are a lifestyle choice' as trotted out on financial threads as having no element of 'only have DC if you have plenty of cash' at all?

Baffling.

[squoosh]

Sorry you're baffled.

[26Point2Miles]

The government already subsidise childcare though

Do what do all you who feel dc is an entitlement, actually want??? Your mortgage paid? Free food? What??

[ArsenicFaceCream]

It's a Thatcherite ideology to assert that having DCs is a 'lifestyle choice'.

It's extreme neoliberalism that's not to many steps from advocating eugenics.

Yes, this.

[GokTwo]

I agree it's a choice. I don't think anyone really has children as a philanthropic gesture to the rest of humanity. Otoh I still think people who have children deserve support, of course they do! I must admit though I do find it annoying when people have a lot of children and then complain the whole time about how tired and busy they are.

[MythicalKings]

I've only ever been pregnant when I wanted to be.

I have 2 children because I chose to become pregnant. My choice.

YABVU

[AnyoneforTurps]

What on earth do people think would happen if we all chose not to have children

That is not an answer to whether or not having children is a choice. And it's an absurd argument because there is absolutely no risk of it happening. You might as well argue that no one should ever turn down a Mars Bar because "what on earth would happen if we all chose never to eat again?".

[ArsenicFaceCream]

Do what do all you who feel dc is an entitlement, actually want??? Your mortgage paid? Free food? What??

That would be the opposite loony extreme view 26 had anyone actually expressed any of it.

[Treats]

One of the problems I have with 'lifestyle choice' as a way to describe having children, is that it disclaims everybody else's responsibility for childrearing, and puts all responsibility squarely on the mother.

In reality, wherever people are having sexual intercourse - regardless of the availability of contraception, abortion or whatever - pregnancies will result. If people want the right to have sexual intercourse with whoever they want, whenever and wherever, then they have to accept the possibility that a baby might result. And be prepared to take responsibility for it.

It might not be you, this time. But it could have been. And for that reason, you shouldn't look down your nose at the person who did get pregnant.

And yes, just the mother. Because the 'choice' argument is also used by some dads to avoid their responsibilities - "it was your choice not to get rid of it".

I sometimes think that we've granted men the freedom to have all the sex they think they're entitled to, without having to take any responsibility for the outcome. Phrases like 'lifestyle choice' to describe children is part of that mindset imo.

[kaykayred]

Jackieharris - Of course. So women get no choice in whether or not to have children, is that it?

Women just wake up one day to suddenly find themselves 9 months pregnant having made absolutely no conscious decision to try for a baby, or continue a pregnancy or any other such thing. Pregnancy just HAPPENS to people and they get no choice in it whatsoever.

The body actually needs sleep in order to survive. If you don't sleep for a long enough period of time, your body will just shut down and you will pass out through exhaustion. It's a safety mechanism because it actually is an essential need. No-one has ever found themselves pregnant due to their bodies having the physical need to be.

To suggest otherwise is utterly absurd.

Look, people often want kids. People generally love kids. The world WOULD be much better off if people stopped having so many, but there's not much we can do about that. No-one is saying you can't bitch and moan about how shitty it can be having to make sacrifices for your children, because EVEN THOUGH it's part of the parcel of having kids, most people understand it can be very frustrating.

Literally no-one in this thread has said "POOR PEOPLE CAN'T HAVE CHILDREN. IT'S THE PRESERVE OF THE WEALTHY". Wasn't there a study a while back that showed that actually, very wealthy parents tended to have fewer children in the UK?

Human's are programmed to procreate in order to ensure survival. This is Mother Nature and is still within us even though the population levels no longer require this

Humans are also programmed to want sex. It doesn't mean we let men drag girls down back alleys as soon as they are old enough to menstruate.

[Jackieharris]

Thinking about this more, I think it's linked to the daft concept of 'mother priviledge' that somehow some people think mums are treated better by society! Bollocks!