To ask you all to sign petition regarding Oldham and Ched Evans

[floatyflo]

Actually I don't believe I am being unreasonable. But wanted to bring it to attention.

MN seems to be a quiet on this today but I think the fight should still go on. I can't link to it as I am so not tech savvy enough but it is on change.org. (Same person whk set up the Sheffield Weds one so of you sogned that one it is pretty easy to locate).Already has over 9000 signatures so please please please continue to sign and share!

LineRunner What you have been told is correct. The claim is for damages. In theory there could also be a claim for an injunction to forbid the Defendant from raping the Claimant again - but it is difficult to see how that would ever be a runner. The Claimant cannot apply for an apology or an injunction to stop him raping anybody else.

What she can do is sue for damages and then tell him that she will settle for a public apology and nominal damages.

George Michael?
The Hamiltons?
Gary Lineker?

WTF?!

Andrew, could she apply in respect of that web site?

I haven't read the whole 28 pages but I am confused about how the consent issue works when both parties are drunk. For example, about 20 years ago, My friend woke up in bed at a friends house with a male friend of her mates. They had all been,out drinking and the last thing She remembers was laying on the sofa feeling very sick. Both my friend and the guy were naked in bed but neither. remembered anything about what had happened between them. I'm only asking out of curiosity really, but how does the law see this? I understand that if a man is sober he should be in a position to gauge whether the woman can fully and properly consent, but if he has been drinking too? Is the responsibility still on him if he is drunk and therefore losing judgement too?

I also don't get what motivation his woman would have had to make a false allegation for shits and giggles and a bit of cash.

We know that it can't have been premeditated, because until around 60 seconds before he stuck his dick in her, she had never met Ched Evans.

Or do people think she woke up in the hotel room the next morning with a big hangover, thinking 'oh shit, silly old slaggy me again......oooh wait a second.....footballers.....' steepled her fingers and there and then came up with a fool proof, guaranteed to end in a conviction and make a shitload of cash plan to pretend she didn't remember anything?

Oookkkkaaaaaayyyyyy.......

I came back on to see if anyone would like to use my brick wall tonight? I've had some repair made since last night.

I'm pleased to see that the petition is growing, and also pleased to read this comment:

"Greater Manchester Police and Crime Commissioner Tony Lloyd even took the unusual step of wading into the controversy. He said Evans' "lack of remorse" and "failure to acknowledge" his crime should keep him out of the game."

It was from a Daily Fail article so I though a quote would do here.

And I hate to say it, but the Daily Fail is doing better than some others in their coverage.

Yes i though the Daily Mail have been surprisingly anti Ched about this whole thing, but to be honest they are happiest when they are giving anyone a good kicking so I imagine that is why, rather than a genuine feeling that he has done something wrong.

I liked the Independent article.

In particular the last paragraph;

"Perhaps it’s because he has shown no remorse, or because he has taken no responsibility for the despicable actions of his fans, or maybe it's because he is so unwilling to learn from what he has done. But it could also be that public opinion is finally starting to recognise rape as the most appalling of crimes which deserves to be met with nothing but disgust and contempt for the rapist, rather than a new contract and football shirt."

The Chedistas don't seem to have grasped the possibility of the evolution of public opinion being genuine. And that it's not just racism that needs to be kicked out of football.

Katty, in your example it would be more relevant if the friend woke up naked and alone with no clue where she was, and it then came to light that the guy had invited his friend (who she didn't know) to have sex with her and there were many other witnesses and filmed evidence of various parts of the evening.

I don't think that in your example there would be enough evidence to take to court, whatever had happened and it isn't really comparable to this case.

Apart from anything else your friend, from what you say, isn't claiming that anybody was raped.

The law holds drunk drivers responsible, and drunk rapists too.

Yes and I'm not certain, but I imagine that as the one who is inserting something into someone else's body, the onus is on the man to ensure that he has consent to do that?

If a woman touches a man who doesn't have capacity to consent then she may be found guilty of sexual assault. If she does this by enveloping him, then it may carry a sentence as severe as a rape sentence.

Thanks for the replies. No there was no suggestion of rape in my friends case at all. The ched evans case made me think of it though as the girl in that case didn't remember what had happened, so I wondered what the law would say if the man didn't remember either, as in my friends situation. I don't know all the detail of the ched case but as he was convicted then I'm sure there was evidence to show that he did rape the girl. What does confuse me though where the line of responsibility starts and ends, eg if a woman is very drunk but appears to be consenting to sex and makes all the right noises as it were, and the man is also very drunk, does the law say that by having sex with her, he is doing something very risky? Does the law say that the man even though drunk, should somehow make sure (how?) that she really does consent and is able to? Men and women all over the world do things they wouldn't normally do when they are drunk, and I'm an old married woman not a young man, but if I was a young man, I would be very afraid to get into any sexual activity with a woman if she had been drinking. But maybe that's how it should be I don't know.

Good example yonic, but how does a person judge someone else's ability to consent? Especially if they too are drunk. I am genuinely at sea with this point, I just don't know how you would gauge ability to consent if you'd been drinking too.

Reasonable belief in consent is a defense in law. So if you are unaware that your partner is too drunk to have capacity to consent and they are consenting by actions, then you have a defense case,

Better by far though for either party to say "ooh, you/we are a bit too drunk for this, shall we leave it and try in the morning if we feel like it then?"

Surely so much better to not have a couple of very drunken shags than to risk sexual assault?

Provided the website does not name her I don't see how she could sue. I know she has been named all over the place - that is I know from MN, not elsewhere - but even CE is not that stupid. I think.

If a man has sex with a woman who does not consent, his only defence is that he reasonably believed that she did consent. If he was drunk, he is less likely to be able to assert that his belief that she consented was reasonable.

In theory, If it can be proved that sex took place, that the woman was too drunk to be able to consent, and that the man was so drunk that his belief that she consented could not have been reasonable, then he could be convicted of rape. However, this is very much in theory, and is of no real relevance to the Ched Evans case.

All a bit hypothetical (and therefore distracting)

Katty, if you read the whole thread and the links it will help you out on the detail.

If you are too drunk to judge the capacity of your partner, don't have sex.

That makes it very easy.

Thanks for the replies and sorry for the distraction! That makes it clearer though, thanks

I think the law judges what would be reasonable.

In this case CE just broke into the hotel room and had sex with a stranger, based on his opinion that his mate had given him consent to share her.

You presume that a drunk women who consented to sex would be likely to go to the police in the morning and report the man for rape.

Of course she would actually be extremely unlikely to do that because women as a general rule are not inclined to report men to the police for rape, after engaging in consensual sexual activity with them.

HTH.

On the other point, your young men really have no need to fear because in the event that they do rape a woman, as in deliberately rape her, they are highly unlikely to even be reported let alone convicted.

So putting these two points together, you will see that men are in fact really very safe from accusations of rape, even if they are in fact guilty of rape. In fact they are more likely to be raped by another man, than accused of rape by a woman when they have not raped her. I hope this reassures you.