To ask what's so wrong about being passive aggressive?

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I am genuinely interested to know; it seems to be the biggest crime possible on Mumsnet. I assume it's because people think honesty should trump everything else, and there is obviously truth in that. But, as any AIBU aficionado knows, there are so many shades of social nicety, and so many possible reasons for what we perceive to be bad behaviour, I can't see why the suggested first course of action is aggression (as opposed y

I always think of an experience that I had once in the theatre. I was sat behind two women who kept turning around to stare at me. I had no idea why and didn't really want to ask because it might not have been anything to do with me, they might have been looking at someone behind me and it seemed a bit disruptive during the performance. Eventually one of them moved seat. I still didn't understand why. At the interval, they kept staring at me.

Eventually, during the second act, one of them told me - quite rudely - to stop kicking her mother's seat. I had absolutely no idea that where my foot was was annoying her, I think I was tapping my foot along to the music a bit. Of course, I stopped when told to.

I'm sure they went home tutting about how rude I was for not taking their hints but I honestly didn't have a clue what they were trying to communicate. For me, that's passive aggression - expecting someone to understand hints rather than just coming out and saying what you think/feel/want.

I know women are socialised this way and so it's not entirely their fault but I absolutely hate the way that a lot of women will do the "I can't believe he didn't understand that, when I said 'I'm fine', I wasn't fine" thing.

Oh I see now. I imagined that if your at the point of crying you'd be saying what you want to happen and be upset. Wouldn't people just be saying but why are you crying? It's not subtle like ignoring or over politeness so I find it harder to think people wouldn't just force the issue out of you.

PA is manipulative, cowardly bullshit which allows the perpetrator to play the victim if they are ever pulled up on it. I hate it.

No because most men don't want to been seen to have made any woman cry

Tears are supposed to be met an emotional response it also shuts down conversation but it's not supposed to be used in muiliplation it's supposed to be a true representation of how you really feel

Also I think another thing some women do my sister wore white to a wedding she was invited to she had something with the groom a while back and I think that was very passive aggressive no one had said not to were white but honestly

It's the deniability that makes me crazy! My MIL & my DH are horrifically PA and it's devastating to me because I'm a straight forward person.

The family are manipulative, cruel and critical, all with a little laugh at the end of a sentence. DH will deny anything has been said or done, even denies things that we both know are true or things that have been admitted as the truth on a previous occasion.

"This shit’s making me crazy
The way you nullify what’s in my head
You say one thing do another
And argue that’s not what you did
Your way’s making me mental
How you filter as skewed interpret
I swear you won’t be happy til
I am bound in a straight jacket"

I have no response. At all. I don't know how to be passive aggressive in return and I wouldn't want to be. I can put up with MIL because it's up to me when I see her or not & if I'm feeling fragile I can avoid her. Not so with DH, he gets me when I'm vulnerable & breaks me down until I want to smash my head against some thing because everything I'm saying is wrong, imagined or made up.

Passive aggression can break a person emotionally & it can absolutely be abusive.

emaline, of your examples 1 to 5, I would say 1-3 and 5 it is not self-evident that it is passive-aggressive. Judged in isolation, each example might not be.

I put DW butter at the back of the fridge as a natural consequence of getting access to my margarine. And she reverses things when it's her turn.

I throw away out-of-date food because I know DW won't. If you've never once left food until it's rotting or mouldy, then possibly you are are being got at. (If it's genuinely only ever one day and not one week past its date, then I think you are being got at.)

I throw out any newspaper, even today's, if it's left lying around, because you making a mess in my space is you attacking me. How dare you complain about me, when you've just forced me to have to clean up after you! (And no, confronting the newspaper abandoner in a polite but assertive manner will not achieve anything, on the contrary, it will lead to a huge amount of pain for me, and no change in their future behaviour.)

I don't understand the music example. In isolation, asking for music you don't like not to be played seems perfectly reasonable to me, even if I know the person I ask loves it, is itching to play it, and I do actually like them.

Of course you know the full context of all of these items, so you are probably right if you see a PA motive behind them, I'm just saying that in isolation, and considered separately from each other, a lot of them aren't clear.

I forgot to mention that quote's from a song that rang true for me recently, not something I wrote for this thread...ha.

Theoretician, seeing something as normal as leaving a newspaper somewhere as a personal attack then doing something as an 'attack' back would definitely be an example of passive 'aggressive' behaviour. I notice there is a little smile after it too...

It's not harmless when it's constant & it can be abusive. The PA person would prefer to be blameless & sometimes won't even admit it to themselves because it can't be 'proven'. My DH will justify, justify, justify. Never overtly in the wrong but leaves his DW in a mess...

Sulking is passive aggressive. I had an ex ( living seperate houses) who sulked over small and big issues. If was something big like an argument he would not phone or come round for a week or 2 rather than confront the thing that he knew I was upset about. Then he would ring one day and be like nothing ever happened.
By then, bringing up whatever our disagreement was about sounded petty or the "thing" had already passed. He would then also over do the niceness by suggesting a nice meal or trip out or something.Efficetively making him look the nice guy and me a bit of nag if I brought it up again.
Of course the problems never got discussed and it was impossible to have honest conversations about things like holidays, children, work or living together. It was all esentially on his terms.

Theoretician, seeing something as normal as leaving a newspaper somewhere as a personal attack then doing something as an 'attack' back would definitely be an example of passive 'aggressive' behaviour. I notice there is a little smile after it too...

"Attack" was meant to be humorous overstatement, and that's the reason for the smile. Though actually, on second thoughts, it was truth spoken in jest. Mess causes me real suffering, every single day. The person I've lived with for 20 years thinks I should just get over myself, and that they're entitled to do what they like, because if I did the same thing to them, they wouldn't mind. If we live together another 20 years, I will not "just get over it", I will continue to suffer, because that's the way I'm wired. (Escaping this mess is genuinely my main reason for wanting to divorce. There are other reasons that's not a good option at the moment.)

Actually I came back to the thread to say that throwing a paper away if you know someone isn't finished with it is of course PA, however that's not what I do. I never know if the paper is finished with when I toss it in recycling, so it's never PA when I do it. Nine times out of ten it turns out (with hindsight) that it is finished with, and it doesn't have to be fished out of the recycling bin again.

Also women crying when they don't want their husbands to do something burying into tears on hearing their is a stag do imminent ECt very minuliputive

That's not passive aggressive, that's just manipulative. I get irritated when people start crying to get their way and shut down any further conversation. Tears are not a trump card.

Obviously if you're upset, crying is fine and a perfectly valid emotion. It just shouldn't be a tool to shut down the other person's valid point.

Fortunately for me most times I'm pretty oblivious to PA behavior because I take what people say at face value anyway. When I do catch on, I mostly ignore it or talk to them directly about an action they did while leaving motive out. So something like "Return the supplies when you borrow them please." with no further reaction instead of "You knew I was looking for it you little shit, why are you deliberately making my day difficult?". That way I can point out when it becomes a pattern, with no deniability on their part.

Or I just set clear expectations of people I work with that I expect x,y,z and I don't care how happy they are to do it, I expect it done on this day or with x amount of warning in advance. That way again, there's no deniability and I can hold them accountable.

Sometimes people do something that can be taken as PA without any underlying motive (which why PA is hard to call people on). I give people the benefit of the doubt most times, and if I know better I pretend I do. If they're being PA, it's foiled their plans by not getting the response they wanted. If they aren't, then you've taken their action as they did intend: harmless and benign.

Theoretician, seeing something as normal as leaving a newspaper somewhere as a personal attack then doing something as an 'attack' back would definitely be an example of passive 'aggressive' behaviour. I notice there is a little smile after it too...

Just to add to my earlier comments, throwing the paper away is not done to cause pain to someone else, but to relieve my own suffering. On the one in ten occasions when my tidying is noticed and resented, I'm given a huge dose of consequences. Messy person is not so much as eye-for-an-eye person as a "you take my eye and I will rip off your head and shit down your neck" person.

Sounds very much like me & DH. I'd check where he was if he wasn't as messy as I am. That's the kind of thing he says about me. I'm a hideouslyb aggressive person too according to him...

He is also always a victim.

Just throwing it into the mix but sometimes women in an abusive relationship resort to passive aggressive behaviour in response to overtly aggressive behaviour. (Genders can be reversed of course)

He is also always a victim

DW says I'd always be victimised, no matter who I was married to, because I allow myself to be bullied. She doesn't think bullying is wrong, she think people who allow themselves to be bullied get what they deserve, for being weak. (On a lighter not she's actively perturbed that I "allow myself to be bullied" by DD 4. I'm soft with DD because (a) she's 4 and (b) I like her.)

(Not immediately flying into a violent rage with someone who has wronged you is being weak. Complaining politely is being weak. The person who shouts loudest is always in the right. This is completely not me, but on one occasion when, doubly uncharacteristically, I was both in the wrong and dealt with the issue by completely losing my rag, the upshot was she apologised to me! Somehow I failed to learn from this.)

Literally the first question FIL asked me when he met me, was "does she bully you?". Apparently she was a middle child who had form, with both her older and younger brothers.

Theoretician Why are you still with her? She doesn't sound like she respects you.

Also people who are being passive aggressive can use this against you to shut you down

Good point theoretician about doing something that is to 'relieve my own suffering', something which is aggressive to somebody else, but makes you feel better in yourself.
Its the controlling person unable to share their space and make allowances for others doing things differently and at their own pace, effectively shuts other people down , discounts their choices and wishes.and in doing so, feels better.

Self medicating by shutting others down.

Is this passive aggressive?

DM to her DD when DD's baby had cradle cap: You know, your grandma when she was alive, would have said that a baby with cradle cap was the sign of a lazy mother!

And then saying nothing else.

Hiawatha it's snide IMO

I can't abide PA behavior. It's spineless and just a shit way to behave. Latest from a work colleague said in a sickly sweet way;

'Well I'm sure you're right Wilbur it's just that, oh not to worry, I'm sure you know what you're doing being such a little star so I'm certain all will be well, so don't let me spoil it for you'.

All said with a little 'I hope you fall on your arse' smile. I wish she'd just be direct and tell me what her concerns are so we can discuss them sensibly.

I don't think Hiawatha's example is pa behaviour it's just being nasty, the same with many examples given here. You can be snide and manipulative without being PA. Cruikshank on p1 had it right.