To ask what's so wrong about being passive aggressive?

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I am genuinely interested to know; it seems to be the biggest crime possible on Mumsnet. I assume it's because people think honesty should trump everything else, and there is obviously truth in that. But, as any AIBU aficionado knows, there are so many shades of social nicety, and so many possible reasons for what we perceive to be bad behaviour, I can't see why the suggested first course of action is aggression (as opposed y

Theoretician, " In examples where I've read of people referring contemptuously to passive-aggressive behaviour by someone else, my take has often been that the complainer is a bully who doesn't like tactics they can't counter."

I'm sorry but I've read your post twice and I don't get it, I gave some examples of PA things people have said to me re not wearing make up for example. Are you saying I'm a bully who doesn't like tactics I can't counter?

I'm sure there are plenty of real-life example where the PA person is in the wrong: that's beside the point. I'm just saying that I can't see that the behaviour is necessarily always wrong, unless you believe retaliation/aggression is always wrong.

And if you are, did you mean to be so rude?

In other words, if you believe retaliation/aggression is sometimes justified, then the proportion of justified PA behaviours is greater than zero.

I gave some examples of PA things people have said to me re not wearing make up for example. Are you saying I'm a bully who doesn't like tactics I can't counter?

I'm definitely not saying everyone on the receiving end is a bully, or has done anything wrong at all. Just that PA would be a logical tactic if that were the case.

might be a logical tactic

A Woman In Your Own Right is a brilliant book to read on understanding aggressive/PA/assertive and passive behaviour, and how to be assertive. The examples are pretty dated (unless that's a newer version than mine) but the underlying message still holds.

PA is not only annoying, but on people like me who take things very literally it often doesn't have the desired effect. I often can't detect sarcasm or I take people entirely at their word if e.g. they say they are fine with something and it turns out later they were fuming.

There are ways to be direct and honest that aren't blunt. I don't think PA behaviour per se can ever be a better approach than clear, honest communication, but you can be subtly or humorously direct, and to my mind assertive behaviour should mean considering the feelings of others as well as trying to convey yours honestly.

OP you are confused to think there are only two choices of response - passive aggression and aggression (eg Fuck off)

Typically the best way to deal with things is to be polite and straightforward.
I'm not a pushover and I will say something to,people if they piss me off but I wouldn't dream of playing games and being passive aggressive.

I think, with me, it is actually to save the other persons feeling/embarrassment. Rather than controlling. If anyone i was PA to called me on it i would be more than happy to give it to them straight. They never would because it is their chosen language and they feel most comfortable that way. Also it IS the only way change can be done with some people. Some people are so precious that any form of challenge would cause such upset the relationship would be irretrievable. But a fe PA comments can actually make them realise it by still giving the illusion they are in charge of their own change in behaviour.

MIL once called me on a PA comment and i gave it to her straight. She was very upset and she has never called me on it again. PILs communicate in the unsaid and we all happily address issues in a PA way.

OK, a better example, that I remember from my googling. An army officer gives an order a subordinate does not like. The subordinate cannot defy authority, so is PA by carrying out the order in a way that is somehow deficient, but sufficiently subtly deficient so that he cannot be punished. This seems to be the classic example of PA behaviour.

Now it may be that the subordinate is very much in the wrong/right to resent/resist the order, and whether we agree/disagree with his view may colour our view of whether his PA behaviour is reasonable or not.

Ah okay Theoretician. Do you think you may be overthinking it?

OP One big problem is that I won't pick up on it and we'll be no further on!

Until the day I realise you do this and then I forever after search for layers of meaning and misinterpret you all over again..

Just say what you mean, politely.

MrsKoala Do you have any examples of 'nice' PA behaviour? I can't think how that works. I can imagine being subtle or hinting about something that bothers you but I think that is different to PA.

Doesn't tactful come from a helpful place of promoting harmony, whereas for passive aggression there maybe has to be a feeling of opposition that you feel you can't show assertively, so you are hacked off?

I actually think 'nice' PA behaviour is things like when people on here say they know someone who smells bad and people suggest they send them on a spa day and then wash all their clothes for them while they're at the spa.

Not actually very nice at all - sticking your nose into something that's not your business and 'fixing' it without the other person's consent.

2015 - I agree there probably isn't 'nice' PA behaviour. But it may be the only way that is effective with certain personalities. So you could choose to be 'nice' and say something gently and kindly to someone only to find them reacting badly, causing a scene, ruining it for everyone. Instead you couls nip their bullshit in the bud with a couple of (what i consider) PA comments -it lets them know you are 'on to them' and let's them then stop their behaviour while still saving face. I consider it just another tool in your arsenal for managing difficult people. Some people directness works, others respond well to humour and some need a PA kick up the bum.

It's more a fight fire with fire approach i think and when i think of it now it has worked best either with PA people or aggressive people. My MIL and Nan are/were PA queens and a few return serves put them firmly back in the box. Also it works with my aggressive parents, it gives them food for thought but doesn't raise the tempo by increasing volume. A quiet comment said with an eye brow raised/faux innocence reduces the tension but lets them know i am fully aware of their tantrum.

It only works when targeted at the right people of course and you would need to understand the dynamics really well. PA comments to strangers and acquaintances can work sometimes and give the receiver the opportunity to wind their neck in and save face, or they can be very misjudged and make you look unkind.

I think you can only be PA if the person 'deserves it', if you are just doing it to make yourself look superior then it makes you look like a twat.

MrsKoala. I think you explained that well and I can see how that might work in RL. 'Fighting fire with fire' rings a bell with me.

Being passive aggressive puts the person your angry with in a constant state of uncertainty. They never know if things are actually ok and whether to relax as you may be resenting them. It also avoids issues and let's them fester. I think it's cruel.

My DH is a last-minute type - always a bit late - never overly, just a bit. I am an always early on time type.

I address it with " I don't like being late can we set off a bit earlier please" - general politeness, getting a point across

DD addresses the same problem with "I've got my coat on", then "the car keys are here", then "I'll just go sit in the car", "I'll wait for you out there OK?" - in other words "get a rocket up your arse dad or we will be late.." which is what she WANTS to say, but she is 12... so uses the mild PA approach instead.

it can be useful.

You see someone look round furtively then drop an empty package on the floor and hurry off. You could shout 'hey don't drop litter' they could get aggressive and it could go very wrong. OR you could say innocently 'excuse me, i think you dropped something' while holding the package. They look at it and are feeling defensive and embarrassed/guilty but you look them straight in the eye and hand it to them and smile in a sickly PA way. They get to take it back and say 'silly me'. You both know what happened tho. The litter dropper got told off but saved face and it was less likely for it to turn ugly. They could have been aggressive and said 'no actually, i wanted to drop it on the floor' in which case you could diffuse the situation by saying 'oh sorry i didn't realise' and smiling in a PA way. Either way they get called on it without being 'called on it'.

Tell me if you think these are examples of PA behaviour, will you?

1. Moving food I've bought to the back of the fridge so I can't see it, it's visually hidden, I'd have to rummage to find it.

1. Throwing away my food the instant it's out of date despite me saying repeatedly that I don't mind things a day or two past sell by date.

1. Chucking out the Sunday paper if I haven't read it by Monday.

1. Being unable to remember what food I like, for a take out or a sandwich. Ie I never eat fish and meat combined in a plate, but this isn't remembered, so a prawn curry plus a lamb curry will be given to me in the same meal. No sandwich will be bought for me because it's not known what I like. Although I've known this person many years.

4a. Giving me less meat than others at the table, or less good quality meat.

4b. Clears away plates after dinner, but leaves mine on the table. Ostensibly because I 'may not have finished'

1. Asking that no Christmas music be played unless it's instrumental only, even though I clearly have a ton of compilations including John Lennon, Slade, Bing, et al.

All the above behavious are from somebody who never starts anything and just wants everyone to be happy

I don't particularly like any form of aggression but there are times when we all might need to use either.

I don't agree that playing the martyr or making a snide comment is passive aggression - it is often in fact aggressive aggression. I would say that the diner who made the nasty comment about the slow food was being pretty direct.

Passive aggressive is like the army officer v subordinate example quoted earlier.