NHS in a state

[Feellikescrooge]

My DF is in his mid 80's and my DM died in April and my DB died suddenly ( road traffic accident) in October. Two weeks ago he went to his GP feeling very unwell. She called an ambulance and sent him to hospital they sent him home late that night, the first I knew was a call from my DF in a taxi because he didn't have enough cash, I had only left him an hour before.

Next morning he attends his regular dialysis appointment and the staff there are so concerned they call for medical backup and he is transferred to A and E at the end of the session. Again he is sent home in the middle of the night without my sister or I being contacted.

The following day I call in at about 10 am and find him on the floor unable to get up, a man who a week before was walking 4 miles plus a day with his dog. Again he was admitted and this time he was kept in. Last Thursday he had a heart attack and was transferred to the CCU. Yesterday he was sent home, when I got there I said to the nurse he did not seem well enough and she shrugged and said that beds were being cleared for Christmas.

I insisted Dad stayed with me and heard him calling at 3am terribly poorly. He was blue lighted to hospital and is now in Intensive Care having been given the Last Rites. I know they are under pressure, my DH was a GP, but surely there is something dreadfully wrong if people as sick as my Dad are being continually sent home.

Seven members of staff sat around a desk doing fuck all for 2 and a quarter hours? That's a strange example, I wonder how you knew they were 'doing fuck all' and who 'didn't give a fuck', I suspect your reading of that situation was influenced by your hostility towards the NHS and NHS staff. All I can say is that wouldn't happen in any of the places I've worked, staff are rushed off their feet and with a very small number of exceptions care deeply about providing the best care that they can.

So elephantspoo which area do you work in ?

handcream oh handcream I'm looking at specialist providers of maternity care for the pregnancy part, everything else I'll do separately. It's a shame it's come to this really. :(

When I collect my monthly prescription I often join a queue of the elderley who often need a large carrier bag to take the medicines away. I do wonder what waste is there and whether all these free medications are used. I wonder if everyone had to pay a small amount per medicine whether it would make us think more carefully

It's in hospitals too, so much gets disposed of its unreal.

The reality is that the experience that the OP has had with her DF is something that is becoming more and more common.
Due to shrinking the budgets when the population is getting older (ie the real NEEDS are getting higher) but wo even trying to do what actually needs to be done: a full restructure of the whole system.

To the ones who say it's not viable to carry on being adequately treated by the NHS, I would like to point them out to what is happening in other countries where they strangely seem to manage it..

To the ones saying it's the patient fault ('He is probably one of those people who refuses help such as SS involvement etc...)
Or the ones who says that it's OP fault for not fighting enough for her dad to be in hospital....
Can I remind you that
1- this is pretty close to victim blaming (if you don't get the right care at hospital, it's your fault, you should have demanded that .... Never mind that we are talking about an 85yo man who was ill, on dialysis, therefore vulnerable and less likely to 'demand' things)
2- we are told again and again that we should not 'ask too much of the system', that 'it's normal not to stay in hospital forever' and the best 'anyway, the consultant will know better than you, the daughter/father/husband, whether he/she can cope with being at home compare to being in hospital'

I am pretty sure that if the OP had insisted for the DF to stay in hospital, she would then have been on the receiving end of comments similar to those on this thread, along the lines that 'resources aren't limitless' and 'we think he will be fine. Stop being so arrogant/entitled'

In effect, she was doomed if she didn't do anything and doomed if she did.:(

How in England we have managed to make the patients, ie the users of the system who are paying for the service, being at fault for the very structural issues of the system is beyond me.

I think it's this free element that means that some patients don't give a toss. A PP said earlier some people go to the GP to get paracetamol... All wrong.

I think non attended appointments are another major drain, it runs at about 20% in many services, I think that's another problem with the service being perceived as free and therefore not always values.

Grays that's exactly what the government is expecting you to do. To get private health insurance to cover your medical needs and then be treated on the NHS by the same people who should have been treating you in the first place.

Except that few people actually get private insurance through their work, the private sector is minimal at the moment and it leaves peopole with lower wages on the sides. Again.

Certainly I have noticed in other EU countries more is expected of the family of the patient, and before anyone says that they might not have anyone, we'll surely that is the case worldwide. We also needs to stop immediately the Health tourism

The NHS needs a good shake up, it needs us the patients to take responsibility for our health and ourselves otherwise it just won't be here for our children.

The trouble is though that if stuff wasn't disposed of, there'd be rising infection rates and guess what, more complaints. For example, when patients wash they have an option of.showering, using 'hot wipes' or a basin. Very few patients will use a full pack of wipes, but I am not allowed to split packets or reheat paxkets or.use them cold. So, inevitably I'm binning packets every morning and overtime it must cost a lot

Of course, a better idea is a shower - but that's time consuming, and then I get told off for not meeting time targets! You can't win.

You're exactly right TheFriar. I realise it even as I think about it. It bugs me that the institution I've worked for, loved and always had a lot of respect for isn't 'good enough' for me to put my trust in it anymore - and it also makes me question myself as a healthcare professional because I expect others to have faith in it whilst not doing myself.

It really is something that gets me down an awful lot. Ive even started questioning my stance on privatisation of the NHS. I've always been staunchly against it but now I find myself thinking if it could improve matters. I don't know anymore. Unless there's a huge cash injection into the NHS and a massive change in how it's being ran I don't see how it can be sustained.

thefriar my comments were sincerely not aimed at victim blaming , some elderly people do believe that they don't want to be a bother , even when their families are lovely and caring and would move heaven and earth for them . I said what i said about kicking up a fuss , because i thought it might help others in the future if they are in the same situation . I meant what i said about complaining , i love the NHS and i think it is like the girl with the curl , when it is good it is very very good and when it is bad , it is awful .

You don't get paracetamol for free on the NHS.
You get a prescription that costs more than buying it yourself.... If you DO get it free, then either you are talking about children (but I have been bluntly refused dressing for my own dcs after a hospital visit) or you are talking about people with disabilities, retired etc that are on low wages, hence the fact they get free prescription.

in effect, you are saying that there are some GPs who are refusing to give a prescription of paracetamol to people who might not be able to pay for them...

handcream - I think your fairly close to where were headed. The NHS is failing. Everyone knows it. Naturally those within it need to close ranks, bury their heads in the sand, and pretend like they have a future. That's natural normalcy bias.

The NHS will always be with us, but the amount of money available will dictate that only emergency and critical care services are offered free, and everything we all assume is our God given right to have for free, like a replacement hip, or a gastric band, a splint on our leg, an Xray or a chat with a psychiatrist will no longer be viable on the public purse.

You cannot run the NHS when it spends more than the sum total of all the taxation accumulated to pay for welfare spending each year.

Private health care will boom, and so will insurance, and those with good jobs will have benefits, and those without will just have to make do. We are returning to economy where those who work and provide rep the benefits of their labours, and those who do not have to muddle through. A two tiered economy.

Correspondingly, there will also be cuts to pension provision to all state pensions and associated services, and cuts to welfare for all those unable/unwilling to work.

With all the socialist ideology in the world, the simple fact is mathematical certainty. There are too many unfunded liabilities for the youth of tomorrow to be able to pay for, even if you taxed their incomes at 90%. We must face a very poor future, and those who think the youth of the future are going to carry on paying their wages and their pension promises are very naive.

I am so glad some are beginning to save privately for future uncertainty.

frumpet but they CAN'T and they shouldn't have to do that.

They can't for the reasons I highlighted.
They should be cared for by the staff and the consultant to take the decision on whether they are staying or not based on their health, not how many beds will be needed in 3 days time.
Most people in these situation, elderly or not, aren't able to express how they feel or even think clearly of the consequences. Just as when a woman is giving birth, her birth partner is there to express her needs because she can't (different situation but same inability to put your point across).
If someone is not fit enough to go back home, then they shouldn't be sent home.

The general population are struggling to put a roof over their heads never mind buying private health insurance. We looked in to it, it would cost hundreds due to our being middle aged. My iPhone costs £35 a month.

Naturally those within it need to close ranks, bury their heads in the sand, and pretend like they have a future.

Frankly that's insulting. I'm not sure what area you work in, whether you have anything to do with the NHS at all, but what you're saying isn't true.

Agree with friar although the 'bed managers' have the role of mythering staff and pushing for discharge so that beds can be freed for more acute pts.

The thing is a lot of people in hospitals don't need to be in a hospital setting, but do need an awful lot of care. But there isn't enough resources in the community for them. 15 mins with a community carer if they're lucky?

Prescriptions - Doctor spend however much time prescribing Ibuprofin, prints out a lovely pink anti-forgery prescription and a nice man from boots comes and collects in under contract. Boots employ staff to fulfil that prescription and put it in. Stray for collection. All in, NHS staff have pissed away maybe £10 for a pack of Ibuprofin that costs 16p.

Take it out of the doctor's pay, and I bet the doctor would think twice about how much he is willing piss away just for the sake of it.

Gosh elephantspoo I want to work in the hospital where the nurses control the budget. Then maybe I could order things that are fit for purpose, rather than rely on an office clerk ordering a "similar item" which really means it was cheaper but actually costs more because it doesn't do the job that the original item would have. So end up using more instead of just one.

As for effecting change, would you like to try fighting thru a gazillion pointless meetings with upper level managers who need everything explained in tiny detail because they are very often business graduates with no idea what it takes to look after a patient?

The problem does not lie solely with nurses. We are often the scapegoat because we are the largest part of the nhs workforce. It's not perfect but lambasting nurses as a whole is unfair. We are one cog in a machine that is broken in many places.

and you only hear about the worst case scenarios because good news doesn't sell so well. For every bad ward/nurse their will be 10 amazing ones that you may never hear about.

OP for you and your dad. What happened sounds terrible. I hope everything turns out ok.

You post seemed very calm and rational ( I don't think it would be). When the dust settles, I strongly recommend that you put in a written complaint of the circumstances and send it to the complaints team and the chief exec of your trust. Straight to the top!! Nothing will change unless people fight for the best service. Bare in mind that it may take a while for a response, particularly if it needs investigated.

We are so lucky to have the services we have. The events in Glasgow remind me of this.

I will gladly put up with being piggy in the middle of "clipboard mafia" (aka managers) and the public hatred. I am doing the best I can whilst being hounded from every side. Including patients who consent to surgery then refuse to follow post-op instructions. Then wonder why they not getting home. But that's another story.

toddles off to have a very satisfactoryly long pee after 12 hour shift

The NHS buys places in our care home and we take rehab, palliative and emergency respite clients in order to free up hospital beds. The system works very well and we're a lot cheaper than hospital.

Op sorry about your DF.
I had similar with Dmum to another PP with the heart issues. After yrs of issues had a full on heart attack which wasnt diagnosed for ages and was then rushed to a full hospital for a stent op.

If you have something serious you must call an ambulance!!
Several times taking yourself/others in to get there quicker you do not get seen. At least in ambulance they assess you.
This was 15yrs ago dsis walked to hospital with serious asthma, 5min walk. Because no ambulance not taken seriously by assesors.
But was very serious when dr finalky saw her days in hosp etc.
Ive seen a nurse drop glove on floor and use it on patients wound!
My mum was told by the assesor - no you have emphysema so you would be like this normally - no. You would. WTF. I had to argue she walks about loads. Finally got taken in. Told to walk to xray again WTF, perso with previous heart attack, with issues breathing. We get there its closed. Walk back. Oh itll be open now. I get a wheelchair an wheel her back.
Finally get the nebuliser she needed.

My gps dont check the bloods tge mw does, so my thyroid result is out, ive spent a week giving them the result, checking theyve seen it.

Op you need to complain- xmas isnt an excuse for killing people.
Who on earth is discharging in middle of the night. Surely a dr needs to agree. If they dont need to surely they should have in this case.
Its not like elderly have loads omf money for taxis.

Ultimately though this is certain parts of the population at fault
Agree people chatting to GPs
Going for a cold
Going to a&e for D&v
Drunks
(Smokers)
Drug addicts
Obese
The effort to deal with all the above is truly a waste of money. We need to take more care of ourselves.
As it must be truly disheartening for staff.
Though i notice gp has a lot of info now on the screens.
I have also observed a lot of sitting omand chatting on wards by nurses.

GraysAnalogy - Isn't true as in, the NHS isn't failing? Or isn't true as in, those within the NHS aren't in denial? I didn't get which part you think isn't true.

I still think its this free element that causes the issues. Waste a GPs time on something non urgent and it doesn't cost YOU anything. Don't fancy paying for a cold remedy over the counter, no worries, go to your GP or even A and E! The worst that can happen is that you are turned away. Use the NHS having not personally contributed anything. That is fine too...

After all it's FREE!