to think it's wrong for a dead woman to be used as an incubator?

[twofingerstoGideon]

One of the most dreadful stories I've read in a long time. Could be triggering.

'Clinically dead' (that's dead, isn't it?) woman kept on life support machine to support 17 week fetus. Her own parents want the life support switched off. I really can't get my head around this at all.

AIBU to think we need to do everything possible to prevent our abortion laws becoming more restrictive and fight against the anti-choice demonstrators who are becoming more and more vociferous and ever-present outside clinics.

Surely even the most staunch anti-choicer can't argue that this is right.

story here

I think that would be gruesome, TBH. Worse than the alternative

because growing abnormally, inside your mother's body which is abused daily, being delivered dangerously early with all the risks and complications that entails and potentially having no home and no family at the end of it all if by some miracle it survives with the capacity to even register it's life is soooo much better???

no other living creature would ever have to go through that with people who cared about them.

The fact it's acceptable for people is beyond disgusting.

It's not better, it's less bad. A different thing.

less bad. well there's a reason

only someone who isn't involved with teh family or has to be there when teh news is broken or the kids need years upon years of therapy could say less bad makes it better

Me and DH have talked about what we would want with regards to being kept alive but I really would never have thought to talk about being pregnant too.

This is a really difficult situation as no one really knows what the lady would have wanted in this exact scenario. It's a very unusual scenario too, I suppose my personal preference (being pro choice) would be that given the lady isn't going to be around to make a choice they should do what they can to keep the foetus alive.

But that's because A. Now that I personally think of this scenario it's what I would want for myself and B. Looking at it logically, without any indication from the mother of her preference I would think it's best to keep the status quo the foetus was developing when it went into the hospital thus if there is a possibility to keep it developing we can only assume that was what the mother intended. But there are a lot of assumptions made, however isn't that what happens with organ donation? If you don't actually have that talk with your next of kin they make an assumption of your wishes.

Perhaps it should be an opt in/opt out situation, if nothing else at least this will make people talk about their wishes. It's really not something I would have even thought to discuss.

What are they doing with her in the meantime? She can't possibly be on a regular ward, or even in ICU - other patients and their visitors might freak out with a corpse permanently in the bed next to them. I don't see how this is viable at all in the short term, never mind if this foetus grows into a child and is born, poor thing.

I didn't say less bad makes it better.
But between two awful choices, I'd choose to allow the foetus to live.
For me it's between delaying a funeral and allowing a foetus to live and having a funeral sooner and killing a foetus.
For me, I don't care what anyone does to my body after I'm dead. I'll give my organs away, be buried, be cremated, serve as host for a baby. Don't care, really.
But I would care for any baby of mine, even if it was still unborn.

I, too, am fine with organ donation, or medical students chopping me up, or whatever. But I'll have consented to that. She didn't consent.

I'd never consent to visiting such horror on a child of mine, even when I'm dead.

The fetus is basically on a life support machine via its mother's body. And some people really don't see that as worrying in terms of a precedent being set?

No, it's a choice between torturing all those who love you who already exist. who may have to watch your body be mutilated and violated. to prolong pain and suffering to those people. giving false hope.

about your children going to school, hearing all sorts going round, about joeys great uncle jack who spent nine years in a coma and woke up. The Internet searches turning up all sorts of horrific or hopeful stories.

maybe even media attention. living that every day. For Months.

knowing every single day that it could all be for nothing.

eternal guilt from family who just couldn't take the baby.

And the unbelievable heartache they may never recover from if it all goes wrong.

or letting nature, take its course and letting people say good bye. having the chance to maybe one day be happy again.

You won't be there to see this.

On a side note but related
The npeu recently released its report on maternal deaths. One of the recommendations was along the lines of if urgent action was needed to save the mothers life, the viability of the fetus should not be a consideration.

If you lived in Portugal and other countries, you'd have to opt out of organ donation.

I understand there are different perspectives. I am giving mine, not saying it should be like I see it.
Not sure those who are horrified can see it from the other perspective.

This thread has been started as though this is the first case of it's kind.

This has happened numerous times, so some families do know what the Mother would of wanted, because they discuss things in the news.

I personally think if cases of women being used as incubators/feeders need addressing, it's the Women on Death Row, in Prisons etc that should be the starting point.

I think that in the case of the Mother being "dead", the rights of the Family/Father in regards to the foetus, should be considered.

Just as a Mother can be granted the right to use any stored Sperm/Foetus's, when her Partner dies.

I know that my DDs would want to be kept in a state for the baby to grow, as I would want to be.

This should be a possiblity.

Yes, IMO, if anything, it should be mostly the father's choice, as it's 50% of his genetic material at stake. Or, from a less cold perspective, it's HIS baby there.
As for the mother, it's no longer "her body" for her to choose (IMO, even from before dying), so, I don't think rights over her body should trump the choices for the baby.
As I said, I really don't care what happens to my body after I die. It's no longer me, nor mine. It's just flesh.

I started the other thread in Feminism about this same thing.

Clinically dead bodies on life support start to break down and have a particular smell,the bones start to weaken,the skin becomes dry and cracked,the eyes sink. The person starts to resemble a corpse.
She will be subjected to vaginal exams and possibly trans vaginal ultrasounds which could cause damage to her crumbling bones. The foetus will be in an artificial environment being pumped full of drugs via the placenta. It will not have any of the normal developmental stimuli a foetus in a living body would have. The hormones required to sustain a pregnancy will be synthetic. If the foetus makes it to viability it will very likely have multiple disabilities and disorders,not to mention unknown damage from the drugs and hormones.
And then two children can watch their already decaying mother be buried. And try to deal with the consequences of the states stance of life at all costs.

As I said, I really don't care what happens to my body after I die. It's no longer me, nor mine. It's just flesh. Lweji

So you would be cool with me having you stuffed and turned into an Allen Jones-esque chair then, would you? Because I think the human body, even a dead one, should be treat kindly.

i think it's one of those posts where people are never going to agree. There is a lot of emotive language on both sides.

Is there anyone medically trained who could give a scientific voice to the debate?

As I've said if there's a chance of a heathy child I'd want me daughter to be kept alive. However I'm not a medic and I'm not sure if it's possible.

I posted this on the other thread and will here. Isn't the point that even if the mother had explicitly said not to save her or the foetus, Irish law means that they would still take the same course of action? That is, the mother's wishes wouldn't be considered relevant whichever way they went and it is that fact that people find disturbing. Or do I have this wrong?

All I can think of is about those poor kids having to wait for their mum to die and seeing her/ hearing about her going through this.

Thats right Art. Irish women do not have the choice. As long as a foetalheart can be detected she/her family does not have rights. This was the crux of Savita Halappanavars treatment and death.

This is simply the state saying it owns women based on religious laws.

I cannot bear that Ireland is such a backward hole regarding pregnancy

Is it awful to hear of your mum going through it or marvellous to hear of a new life and the mother still giving love to a child beyond life

There is very little chance of life Andcake.

This is a discussion where no-one can win or have the right answer because the mother never (as far as we are aware) has expressly stated what she wanted. I think it was mentioned earlier on in the thread about the boyfriend - we have no idea what he wants but judging by some of the comments here his opinion shouldn't matter - even if he was in a situation where he was in a better position to judge her wishes.

Do check the thread properly, plinkyplonk. We have absolutely no information whatsoever about the boyfriend from the original report: he simply isn't mentioned. As it does mention her parents, it sounds as if he is not involved. I don't think anyone is saying that his opinion doesn't matter, because the fact of the matter is we have no idea whether he has any opinion or what it might be.

So you can make cheap shots and snide comments about people trying to have a discussion about this or help contribution to the wider points at hand i.e. how to prevent situations occurring like this again?

What cheap shots? I haven't seen anyone on here doing that. And what do you mean about preventing this situation happening again? The reality is that pregnant women will sometimes reach a position where they are on life support for a multitude of reasons. The only way to prevent the dilemma from arising again would be to make all pregnant women sign something saying what they want to happen in this eventuality - which may be desirable but would not realistically ever by fully achievable.

I agree with you, OP. This is horrific.