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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think it's wrong for a dead woman to be used as an incubator?

365 replies

twofingerstoGideon · 18/12/2014 07:11

One of the most dreadful stories I've read in a long time. Could be triggering.

'Clinically dead' (that's dead, isn't it?) woman kept on life support machine to support 17 week fetus. Her own parents want the life support switched off. I really can't get my head around this at all.

AIBU to think we need to do everything possible to prevent our abortion laws becoming more restrictive and fight against the anti-choice demonstrators who are becoming more and more vociferous and ever-present outside clinics.

Surely even the most staunch anti-choicer can't argue that this is right.

story here

OP posts:
RustyParker · 19/12/2014 20:06

My sister was brain dead and kept on life support for 5 days before we allowed life support to be withdrawn - aged 36.

There is no "just brain dead" or "just flesh" about watching someone you love on life support and I'm sickened to hear the way this woman's body is being talked about. My sister was DEAD before the life support was even switched off; her colour was gone, her face gaunt and sunken. For days I rubbed moisturiser into her dry skin. God forbid any posters here are ever faced with the situation I was in where I had to watch the life drain out of my sister while considering organ donation, burial details, informing family and friends all while knowing I was going to have to watch her die in front of me at a time decided by someone else (in order for her to be an organ donor).

To be frank; if my sister was in this poor woman's position also 14 weeks pregnant when her illness occured I would also have let the baby go with her. 5 days was horrendous enough to live through watching my sister go through that, I couldn't have done it for potentially 5 months. I loved my sister with all my heart but she deserved dignity in death and we had the right to mourn her. To this woman's parents she is not "dead flesh" just as any of your loved ones who might be unfortunate enough to be in this position would be and they should not be condemned for making the hardest decision they would ever have to make.

Yes, we look at our children and know we would do anything to keep them safe. We would put ourselves in harms way in a heartbeat to protect them. But every baby can't be saved at any cost and shouldn't be saved at the expense of treating a loved one with dignity and allowing them to pass on peacefully without family having to watch their loved one's body deteriorate day after day, even hour by hour. Especially so when all available evidence is not indicating a favourable outcome for the foetus.

My heart goes out to all involved.

Shedding · 19/12/2014 20:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Shedding · 19/12/2014 20:25

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RustyParker · 19/12/2014 20:46

Thank you Shedding Flowers

I understand that strangers, who are probably also mothers, first think of the baby. But it's a difficult balancing act in this situation, even without a pregnacy to consider; however small the possibility you have hope then coupled with the realisation that your loved one won't survive - I promise you though, when the time comes you only think of dignity for that person and you want to send them from this life surounded by love ideally looking like the person they were.

Ultimately though, I don't think it's right to prolong someone's death and possible suffering. As this woman is brain dead then like my sister she has to die "twice" which is an horrific thing to consider and live through, like I did as I was with her when she was first taken ill.

Gileswithachainsaw · 19/12/2014 20:47

rusty Flowers

you have summed it up perfectly.

I'm on the register. I'd consent to a few days to allow for donations to take place.

But not months. not like this poor woman.

so sorry for your loss.

RustyParker · 19/12/2014 21:18

Thank you so much Giles and for the flowers too.

We were committed to fulfilling my sisters wish to be an organ donor so yes, she was kept alive longer than she would have been if not a donor but absolutely agree, a day or two is acceptable and respectful, months is not.

I'm also on the donor register and although it's a hard thing to watch your loved ones body being prepared for the process, I have no qualms in being a donor when my time comes. I can't understand why some posters are comparing this situation with organ donation, it's not even on the same spectrum.

duplodon · 19/12/2014 22:29

If I was 32 weeks pg or over I would want to be kept alive, but not 14. It's gruesome.

QTPie · 19/12/2014 22:51

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

LucyBabs · 19/12/2014 23:08

Rusty Parker You have said what I have been wanting to say. I am so very sorry for your loss x

How anyone can think someone is just flesh, a corpse, a dead body!
They were a person, they had loved ones, lived a life ffs!

I'm sorry but I hope this poor woman's family win their case and can allow their daughter to pass away with dignity.

I'm Irish and it sickens me how women are treated as incubators in this country. Birth at any cost regardless of the woman's family or other children.

Imagine if they keep this woman on life support for the next 20 weeks?!
Its barbaric.

FayKorgasm · 19/12/2014 23:46

The father of the two children might not be the father of the foetus. It could be a casual relationship, one night stand or indeed rape. Women with children can and do get raped. For whatever reason he does not appear to be present in this very sad case so I think its best we don't speculate on his role in her life.

Rusty I am truely sorry for your loss and hope my earlier post description did not upset you.

WingsofNylon · 20/12/2014 00:13

Mothers ARE incubators when pregnant.
If I could opt into having my body used to keep either my own or anybody else's baby alive I would consent to it. So I don't think it is particularly creepy or unethical but I do think that the impacts and wishes of family members should be considered.

duplodon · 20/12/2014 00:28

Nope, women are not incubators when pregnant. They may be incubating... but they are also doing much, much more with their bodies and lives, and being pregnant isn't the sum of their existence, even for the most committee, pregnant-centric woman ever to bear a child. The danger of seeing women as incubators when pregnant is it reduces the status of women to things. This is relevant in the Irish context as women are not actually allowed deny consent to Amy procedure a medical professional deems necessary, including ARM in labour, as proven by case law. Ireland is a frightening place to be a pregnant woman and this is about much, much more than this poor woman's tragedy and her family.

ArcheryAnnie · 20/12/2014 00:34

Rusty, I'm sorry for your loss, and I'm grateful that you were willing to come and talk about the reality of the situation here. That really can't have been easy for you. Thanks

I just can't imagine visiting that horror on either the living relatives who have to watch it, or the foetus if it survives to become an child and hear what happened.

divingoffthebalcony · 20/12/2014 00:35

Such a sad, macabre story. This poor woman was barely out of the first trimester when she died, and to intervene in such an extreme manner (I know Irish law is Irish law, unforunately) is the very opposite of ethical to me. Whoever said it is playing God instead of honouring God was spot on. And I don't buy the arguments that say "it's what she would have wanted" or "at least something good can come out of this" because emotion and supposition just shouldn't be allowed into a story such as this.

FiloPasty · 20/12/2014 00:40

Rusty, I am so sorry for your loss Thanks I wasn't really sure where I stood on this discussion, but think your experience speaks volumes :(

sashh · 20/12/2014 08:41

Lweji

You are ignorant of the processes that happen within the body, The comments about the smell and the cracking skin are because this is what has happened in other cases.

This body is being kept alive, but it is not being kept healthy. The brain is not working which means hormones and other chemicals are not being controlled.

This means the pregnancy cannot continue normally.

Th body that is being 'kept going' is likely to develop diabetes, infections and various other medical issues.

Link to a study of 30 cases

www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/8/74

tobysmum77 · 20/12/2014 08:43

Unless i'm missing something Gods will is that a baby needs it's mother to be alive past 17 weeks gestation. Its just awful Sad .

Chaseface · 20/12/2014 08:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FayKorgasm · 20/12/2014 09:32

Women are so much more than incubators,they are people real live people. Are men just sperm banks? No of course not.

I think some are under the impression that they would be like sleeping beauty lying there instead of the body breaking down and trying to start decomposition. And to put two children through that is beyond cruel. Mummy is dead but not really but we can't bury her and no you can't visit her/ or visit and why does mummy smell like that,wheres mummys eyes gone,why does mummy not look like mummy.

needtomanup · 20/12/2014 10:40

Just to clear up the father situation, he is in the picture but due to not being married to the mother has no rights to the unborn child. The baby will be taken at 25 weeks, lift support will be turned off then.

I can see both sides to this argument however do feel it's the family decision in the end. They are unfortunately trying to grieve for their daughter while currently fighting this out in court. I feel so sorry for them all.

needtomanup · 20/12/2014 10:41

So sorry about your sister Rusty.

duplodon · 20/12/2014 10:45

It is appalling if they intend to deliver at 25 weeks. That is the worst possible outcome for all. Ex-prems really do suffer in many cases. While it may be right to do everything possible to preserve their lives when someone goes into labour spontaneously, to deliver medically at this gestation just because you can is just playing God in the worst possible way for all concerned. The chances of long term health and development needs are so high.

divingoffthebalcony · 20/12/2014 10:52

I'm shocked at 25 weeks as well. The outcomes at that gestation are pretty poor even in a pregnancy that had progressed normally up until that point. The prognosis for a sick foetus delivered from a dead mother must be absolutely dire. So why do it? Why cause so much suffering to so many people?

ThatsJustTheWayItIs · 20/12/2014 10:55

I don't see the problem in keeping her 'alive' to keep the foetus alive. I would want to donate my body to my baby if it needed it. Isn't there a campaign to introduce 'presumed consent' for organ donation? I think it's being trialled in Wales next year. How do people feel about that?

KitCat26 · 20/12/2014 11:05

If this was me, at a similar stage in pregnancy, I would wish to be allowed to die. I think DH and my parents would wish that too. Personally I would not want my existing children or family to be subjected to such a long period of limbo.

If it happened to me in the third trimester and a viable baby could be delivered by caesarian quickly, if not immediately, that would be different.