to think it's wrong for a dead woman to be used as an incubator?

[twofingerstoGideon]

One of the most dreadful stories I've read in a long time. Could be triggering.

'Clinically dead' (that's dead, isn't it?) woman kept on life support machine to support 17 week fetus. Her own parents want the life support switched off. I really can't get my head around this at all.

AIBU to think we need to do everything possible to prevent our abortion laws becoming more restrictive and fight against the anti-choice demonstrators who are becoming more and more vociferous and ever-present outside clinics.

Surely even the most staunch anti-choicer can't argue that this is right.

story here

Browers I think I may be around the same age as you also an Irish person living in the UK. I too can remember pharmacists refusing to give the pill and condoms were not stocked anywhere. Sure my doctor told me that tampons would take my virginity. A medical professional ffs.

The chandler I am not sure who you mean when you say the Irish state as that obviously includes both the political establishment and the people. Both I would suggest want the issue of abortion to just disappear.

Before you suggest otherwise legalising abortion unfortunately will not make it go away since there is a very strong cultural and religious pro life contingency of the population. I also don't believe they are in the minority (although I am not among them) and probably not for religious reasons as Ireland is fast becoming a very secular society. I am only estimating here but I would suggest the amount of people looking for abortion on full demand would be less than 25% if even that if there were no time limits applied, there is probably the same who want the status quo to remain. Most other folk lie somewhere between including rape, incest, fatal foetal abnormality, or time limits based on viability of the foetus (like the UK version) as reasons to allow or restrict abortion.

Leadership is not going to change people's views on abortion. I do really want the 8th amendment to be repealed but when it is I don't see abortion on demand ever being in offer in Ireland, we will get something more like the UK fudge but which will be more restrictive I guess.

They would probably charge women for it too making abortion a luxury only the rich can afford like so much of the health care in Ireland.

Faykorgasm I am in no doubt that abortion will not be free ever in Ireland. No medical treatment in Ireland is free unless you are on a low income.

When I use the word "the Irish State" I mean the government and the Constitution anothernumberone. I do think that in most cases though, a society gets the government it deserves.

There are Catholic societies which permit abortion though, aren't there? The South of Germany for instance is very Catholic, but abortion is permitted.

Women's rights are an issue all over the world, but its not politically fashionable to promote them, as opposed to for instance minority groups.

The raped torture victim case illustrates quite well the delaying tactics used in Ireland to deal with pregnancies in such situations - various court hearings cancelled, projections of expensive costs for abortions, doctors "losing" notes, and so on.

Chandler, you are quite right, she did refuse food and was threatened with being force fed or may be she was force fed, I can't remember. To call it barbaric is an understatement.

As for press releases about Ireland supporting a larger population well that's just laughable. Irish people can be found everywhere in the world and would have a bit of a nerve to complain about immigrants.

Irish people have always left Ireland in their droves for lots of reasons. I left when I was 18 because I could not tolerate the influence of the catholic church in the running of the State and especially in relation to the treatment of females. When I tell my teenage children about it they literally can't believe that happened.

Or a woman is pregnant another. All pregnant women are entitled to free medical care relating to the pregnancy. Very telling really.

Fay, its completely surreal isn't it? Even now when I was writing on this thread I kept thinking 'did that actually happen?' It did happen and it wasn't that long ago. My DD is 18 and when I started telling her things she thought I was talking about things that happened in Ireland over a hundred years ago.

Another number, the political establishment would just love the issue of abortion to just disappear because it isn't exactly a vote winner. Women in Ireland don't want the issue to disappear especially when some women are forced into the trauma and expense of travelling to the UK to have an abortion on the grounds of an unwanted pregnancy or having to travel to have their catastrophically disabled unborn baby's life terminated. All in the name of God!!!

Apologies for diverting from the original thread.

It really is surreal. I can still remember my neighbour sending her 14 year old dd to live with her aunt because she 'went and got herself pregnant'. Or my first saturday job getting felt up by the boss and when I complained told to pretend I liked it. I was 15.

Bruthas.. I agree, and also disparage the NI set up just as much.

The chandler I don't really view Ireland as much of a Catholic country anymore. The behaviour of the Catholic church has seen interest in the church at an all time low. In fact I would find it hard to imagine us as being any more Christian? than the UK these days. As I said above it is equally a cultural issue rather than just the religious issue it was historically. For example I have heard plenty of Irish atheists consider themselves pro life.

What happened with the young girl who was a rape victim, she was a minor when she arrived in Ireland, is horrific and unquestionably shows up the serious flaws with the current constitution. The current situation equally shows up the issue but the reality is the issue is so divisive that it is bordering on being unresolvable. It is nearly the same in the North of Ireland where you would love to see the UK taking a more active leadership role. In fact abortion seems to be the only issue politicians in Northern Ireland can agree on.

I just don't understand how NI is part of the UK and is not subject to the UK laws.

In the same way as Scotland is and isn't.

It's appalling Browers - I am a citizen of the UK, a British subject, I work and pay taxes, I am a grown adult with full mental capacity and yet if I found myself in the position that I needed an abortion for whatever reason I would have to pay £1000 +, travel 100s of miles away from my support network and risk traveling back while actually in the middle of or immediately following the procedure. It's scandalous.

Regarding abortion and religion , it's not just the catholic church that disagrees with it. A lot of the right wing Protestant churches disagree too. In America some of the rabid anti abotionists are right wing nutters who hate Catholics too.

In Northern Ireland the Calvinists are anti abortion too.

This seems to be turning into an Irish-bashing thread. I lived there for several years and I never had any problem getting contraception nor did I feel judged for using it. (I'm in my 30s) The link to the 30 other cases of BD women being kept 'alive' for the sake of the baby shows that this type of thing has happened in other countries. This is not just about the abortion law in Ireland. There was another recent case in Milan as well.

Someone earlier in the thread talked about people being kept alive so that their organs can be used for transplant - I see this as very similar. I still don't see how anyone can argue that this is going against a woman's rights when they don't know what she would have chosen. Yes, it is sad that her Dad wants to bury her but if she had made it clear that in this situation, she would want to be kept alive for the baby, would you be supporting her choice or would you be saying that her parents should have the right to go against her decision?

I agree , I'm an Irish lapsed catholic with three daughters. I'm in my thirties and the Ireland you describe wasn't my upbringing.

I live in the uk now.

The idea that the majority of Irish people are right wing or Catholic is just laughable. The wording of the constitutional amendment that has led to this and previously recently shocking cases is responsible for this, but in part that's just constitutional politics for you - this was never necessarily intended, but the wording has been interpreted in a way that has led to this situation and it needs to be redressed. The Minister for Health andDeputy Leader have spoken out saying the law needs to be reviewed and changed and doesn't serve women well.

There are a lot of things wrong with Ireland, but I've just returned here after 12 years in the UK, and there's quite a bit that's perfectly great about living here. I wouldn't be rushing to have a baby here, I will admit... but it's a nice place to actually raise kids relative to where I was in an urban area of Northern England. It's a tiny, tiny country and the bureaucracy and short-sightedness here is frustrating and irritating but it galls me no end when it is expected to be like a mini-England despite having an entirely different demographic, political structure and available public funds. I wouldn't be declaring it a no-fly zone on the basis of a badly worded amendment to the constitution, which will almost certainly be revisited.

Goth, the Ireland I described wasn't your upbringing or the one the other poster described?

I would also say Ireland has changed almost beyond recognition since I left 12 years ago. I feel a total foreigner here. I can imagine the differences would seem extreme if you left 20 years ago. We have been over and back these last few years and I thought I had a good idea of how it worked but it is completely different in reality to what I imagined it to be when in the UK. Some of it I hate, some I am enjoying. I think it's important not to make assumptions about another country from outside its borders, though it seems to be acceptable to do that about Ireland in a way it isn't about other countries which I find uncomfortable.

Duplodon I thought I was being hyper sensitive because I do agree with the views of abortion of many posters upthread but some if the tone was starting to niggle a bit. I also no longer recognise the Ireland described by some posters. I have never voted for anyone based on a single issue and if I were to abortion and actually maternity issues in general which Ireland is not great on thanks to a dream if providing all women with consultant led care in the 50s would top my list but there are other important issues to consider. 'Bureaucracy and short sightedness' that I definitely recognise.

JusttheWay, if the mother had stated, when she was well enough to do so, that she would not want to be kept alive for her unborn baby her wishes would have been overruled by the State because the Irish Constitution takes that option out of her hands.

I am from Ireland and there are many thngs that I disagree with but there are also a lot of things I absolutely love about Ireland and I am certainly not going to bash Ireland as a whole. I think that despite the negative things I experienced that I have been enriched by being born and reared in Ireland.

Women in Ireland were disadvantaged by Canon Law which influenced the laws of the State. I worry nowadays about Sharia Law in the UK.

Browers, it just seems that there are plenty of people willing to fight for the woman's right not to keep the baby alive but very few who would fight for her right to choose to keep it alive. I think that's because people are associating it with the abortion debate when this isn't even about abortion.

duplodon, I agree with lots of what you said esp about people expecting Ireland to be a mini-England.