To think this is a bit racist?

[EMS23]

Two friends from completely separate friendship groups have recently expressed a similar opinion to me. They have each moved their DC from a school because 'she was one of only two children not called Mohammed' / 'they were all Muslims - I don't want my kid being the minority'.

After the first one, I was pretty sure it was mildly racist, felt a bit uncomfortable about it but I rarely see her so just thought, whatever, bit of a shame but no great loss.
Then one of my oldest and best friends said the exact same thing and now I don't know how to feel. I love her and have always really respected her intelligence so now what?
Am I being hyper sensitive here? I'm a white British person so i don't think I feel offended for myself IYSWIM but I abhor racism in any form and never imagined myself as being friends with people that I knew were.

Re kids in school.

My secondary school had a mix of around 80% Asian kids and 20% white (very few other ethnicities).

Personally, I wouldn't send my dc to a school where they were in the minority to that degree (race/religion wise). Although there were very few that spoke English as a second language, most of the Asian kids were fluent in another language, which was the main language used (when the teachers weren't nearby). It was very excluding, often racist and I'd not allow my own dc to go there.

Original

Yes I agree the degree matters. There is a lot of difference between 93% (example in OP), 80% your example and 52-54% (glitter's example).

I also think there is a world of difference between a near-monoculture, which could present some problems for the minority group be they white british, polish catholic, pakistani muslim etc (90%+ of pupils from one cultural/religious background, particularly where that doesn't accurately represent the area) and a real ethnic and religious mix, out of which it just so happens not many of the DC share your DC's specific background (so what? -probably true of many of the DC in the class)

So, my DS is in a school where the majority of his class are Pakistani Muslim. He doesn't seem to have any problems. No-one is called Mohammed to the best of my knowledge although in the other classes there may be one or two. The rest of the school make-up comprises a mix that is diverse as the UN - there are Polish, Romanian, Aussie, Jamaican, Portuguese, Indian and obviously those of white British descent.

There are those that like my son are a mix. My son's best friend is Irish/Pakistani, the little boy goes to mosque but he's currently looking forward to celebrating Christmas.

My son plays with all the children and has no problems, I'm not sure he even notices - although at Eid he did say he wanted to be Muslim as he thought he would get given more chocolate!

The mums (and dads) are lovely too and everybody speaks and we all have a good laugh, we just all want the best for our kids. I do agree schools where over 90% of one culture may not be healthy but our school I think is proof that it can work if parents are prepared to just talk and accept differences.

I'm hoping my son will grow up with an attitude where he is prepared to accept and learn from people of all cultures and ethnicities.

I think if more parents said I'm not going to choose a school on the basis of predominant culture we would get more mix and it would be less of an issue.

Arsenic; "if the balance was tipping over to ethnic minorities being the majority then we'd move and change school."

I get that she lives - and appreciates living - in a mixed area, I get that with subsequent posts she qualified that her concern was language, but in that first post she was talking about children who are like mine. Theoretical children are personal to someone. That is my point. I am not actually personally offended by her view, I am objecting to her stance about the balance of children like mine.

Anyway, I concur that a mix is good and monocultures benefit no-one: the Dutch example is the antithesis of what I would like to see here. Unfortunately I think that fear and misinformation (all round, I am not holding any one culture ore or less responsible for fear and misinformation)exacerbate the likelihood of it happening.

I've seen debates both ways about this on MN; for example whether to send a mixed race child to an all white school. But there are also lots of discussion about sending kids to schools in rough neighbourhoods. When it comes down to it, we all like our children to have the opportunity to makes friends with children with a similar outlook to us and not to stand out from the crowd. Unfortunately, there comes a point where kids start to find themselves in segregated schools (and communities).

Anyway, I concur that a mix is good and monocultures benefit no-one: the Dutch example is the antithesis of what I would like to see here.

Grief, yes. I don't like the sound of the dutch situation at all.

Unfortunately I think that fear and misinformation (all round, I am not holding any one culture ore or less responsible for fear and misinformation)exacerbate the likelihood of it happening.

I don't think we should be encouraging religious education either (of any stripe).

We need a really strong pro-secular, pro-multicultural education policy.

Haven't rtft but I'd wager that people thinking it's racist also think it's perfectly reasonable for ofsted to penalise entirely white schools. Cos racism only works one way, right?

Im a bit late to this thread but thought id add my thoughts anyway.

Getting back to the OP, I don't think that there is necessarily anything racist about not wanting your child to be in the minority at school as it can be isolating. But the Mohammed remark is racist yes.

I went to a school where there was indeed a mix, but as a 'white girl' I was very much in the minority and it did have a negative effect on my school experience. As someone said above often I was intentionally excluded from conversations by the use of other languages and there were other cultural aspects that were used against me negatively, very much in a racist way. Yes children from different cultures will find a way to play together yada yada yada, but teenagers are slightly different IME.

Even though we only have a 16mo DS at the moment we are already in the process of moving so that we will have a choice of schools in the future that have a more balanced mix. I do not want any children of mine to feel the way I felt at school. I do not consider that to make me a racist.

Sending a mixed-race child to an all-White school is an entirely different kettle of fish, Bilberry, because White British is the dominant (and privileged) culture in Britain.

(Btw, it's funny - I live in London, and I don't actually know anyone called Mohammed!)

KatherinaMinola, I can't see what the political makeup of the UK has to do with a specific child in a specific class who might feel excluded.

Baxk to this thread for the first time today and found this:

Equality only applies to ethic minorities it would seem. If we want equality then we're racist.

Does anyone know what in seven hells Glittery is on about? Where is any white child being denied equality here?

Haven't rtft but I'd wager that people thinking it's racist also think it's perfectly reasonable for ofsted to penalise entirely white schools.

Why would you think this. Woozlebear? Who here has pronounced on this?

As it happens, for me it would depend on the answer. If a school being all-white, or all-black, or all-anything-else was an accident of geography or demographics, then no, I wouldn't penalise any school. If the schools monoethnicity was as a result of the school failing to tackle racism from either teachers or pupils, thus leading parents of the "wrong" ethnicity to keep their kids away, then absolutely I would want ofsted to penalise them. Wouldn't you? Same goes for more sneaky ways of rigging the intake - eg only choosing feeder primary schools from white areas even though the secondary is in a diverse area, etc etc.

Backonly, it's like this:

Even in very mixed or majority-BAME schools, the head teacher will likely be White British
The senior management team will likely be White British (or mostly so)
Other senior staff (teaching or senior support/admin) are still more likely be White British than BAME
Even in schools with a good ethnic mix of teachers, around 50% will be WB
Plenty of support staff will be WB
Teaching will have a heavy WB bias (in history, literature, music etc) because that's the dominant culture.

That's a hypothetical majority-BAME school I'm talking about (I have direct experience of some real, current examples). Switch to talking about a mixed-race child in an all-White British school and I hope you'll start to see the problem.

It's about role-models, leadership, visibility, culture as much as it is about the exact demographic make-up of the students.

That may be true, but I don't see what difference that makes to a child who feels excluded because they are the only poor one, the only black one, the only white, fat, tall, or red-headed one.

When you'd finding a place for your child you are looking for what will work for them. Not for some political agenda (unless you are an MP)

Isn't one of the justifications for school uniform that it attempts to make them all look the same regardless of how much money their parents have to spend on clothes?

Even in very mixed or majority-BAME schools, the head teacher will likely be White British
The senior management team will likely be White British (or mostly so)

Yup. Seen this, been there. It really is a bit depressing when the head of a majority-BAME school, in a large city with many, many excellent and highly-qualified candidates of all ethnicities, appears to both pupils and parents to only see leadership qualities in other white people, and the only potential role models who look like the pupils are the security guards and other support staff.

It honestly does make the difference, Back - they won't be the only WB child anyway - even in schools that are 90% BAME (which I think is the highest percentage). Hearing history, literature etc that you can relate to - learning about people you can relate to is something that switches children on or off learning (not the only thing, but one factor).

I honestly want my child to mix with people of all cultures, classes, abilities - I'm not an MP, and it's not a political agenda.

Well in the 'Trojan horse' schools they set out to fix that didn't they.

In a country which is still mostly White British what else would you expect? And would you really want new staff to be picked 'because you are the same color as the kids". That doesn't sound right either does it. A paint chart on the desk for every interview for color matching.

Unless you think that it's not possible for adults from any group to act in a non-racist way? in which case we'll have to have completely segregated schools, offices and shops.

You can be 'not a racist' in the 'send them all back' or using slurs way, and still have prejudiced or racist beliefs or thoughts. I know I do, and I feel like the honorable thing to do is admit it. I know I WILL feel a bit unsettled sending my child to a school where he's a minority. It's not how I grew up, and it'll seem different and a little scary to me. What I think is important is to treat this worry like all irrational worries, and get the hell over it. I have NO way of knowing whether he'll be bullied, feel left out, struggle with language or academically due to being in that position, until he goes to the school. To claim otherwise would be making a generalisation about a culture and saying that I suspect that culture is worse than mine.

I completely believe that every parent should be able to choose what they think is best for their child. God knows people make choices every day that I think are mad, but they're their choices and it's fine. It's the justification that bugs the shit out of me. The idea that you won't admit a prejudice because it will damage your idea of yourself as a 'good person' or a 'not racist'.

It seems fairly obvious to me, that given the current issues in the Muslim world, an awful lot of people would feel a bit uncomfortable about sending their child to a predominantly muslim school. We all watch the news and it's not exactly heartening. But it IS a minority of the muslim population. It really is. It's understandable to feel some fear. But to be adult about it is to deal with that, to know that actually it's not likely to affect you directly and that most Muslim children are, really, just like yours. To do otherwise is prejudiced. It just is, and it surprises me that so few people are willing to admit that.

I think maybe the school that the OPs friends were talking about is like some of the ones around us where there is a very high proportion of kids who are very recent arrivals to the UK who either speak little or no English.

I'm not talking about bi-lingual kids, but kids learning English from a very low level of knowledge. Also parents/carers who cant/wont speak English.

At our old school you would get kids parachuted in who spoke little or no English (yes, even British born kids), and it took them time to settle.

A child who is frustrated is a handful, and there were some kids who would lash out in frustration because they didn't have the language skills to follow the classes. They mostly turned out to be good kids - they were just really frustrated and angry.

KatherinaMinola, you're talking about lessons and I'm talking about someone to play with and have round your house. I'm talking about minimising the chance that your child will be standing alone in the playground because no one chooses to be their friend.

Both of those are important, but the latter is how this thread started.

The New Statesman - just to address your assumption. The schools I was referring to in the OP are in Cardiff and North West London.

Were the kids being ostracised/bullied as if so cant see why that would be racist to move them.

I did some work experience way back when in a London primary school that had a Muslim majority. They were honestly the kindest, sweetest, most gentle children I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. I cannot even accurately put into words how downright beautiful these children were. They were all just such lovely little souls. I've never met such well mannered children and they had so much respect for their peers and teaching staff.

I'm naturally very pale - think vampire pale. And they were all fascinated by my colour. They would put there arms next to mine to compare every morning and say, "Still no tan Miss Vino!"

Personally speaking, it wouldn't matter to me an ounce what the majority was in my own dd's class. As long as she is surrounded by pleasant children who she enjoys being friends with and she ticks along at school just fine, then there is no problem. Why move a happy child?

The problem with adults is we don't see the world through a child's eyes anymore. Whilst your friends may see a minority as 'a problem', their children won't distinguish race, skin colour or religion as anything other than a simple, inconsequential difference within their friendship group. And unless their child is somehow being excluded as a result of these differences, I'm not sure I see where the problem is

When my dd makes a new friend and I ask her to tell me all about them, she doesn't start off by saying: "Well, she's black and a devout Christian and she goes to church every Sunday and she says her prayers every night and..." She doesn't see any of that. Nor would she care.

No. My dd's response would be the same as most children's: "Oh, she's really nice and we played together at lunchtime and oh Mummy, she loves Monster High too, just like me! Can she come for a play date if I tidy my room, pleeeeeeease?!"

I think your friends are being massively shortsighted, and it's a real shame.

And would you really want new staff to be picked 'because you are the same color as the kids". That doesn't sound right either does it. A paint chart on the desk for every interview for color matching.

But, BackOnly, if the head teacher only ever appoints white people when there are talented candidates of all ethnicities available, then it's pretty clear that the paint chart on the desk already exists, and the only colour on it is white.

I'm not even saying that this is done consciously or maliciously, or that the head teacher would be anything but horrified at the suggestion they are acting in a racist way. But there is a thing that all appointment panels in every profession have to guard against, and that is the tendency to appoint people in your own image/ I think that's what happens often, and the result is that many brown kids end up with only white people as leadership models, which can't be healthy for anyone.

I'm not asking for special treatment - I'm saying special treatment in some places already exists, and around here it favours white people.

(And although I am very far away from the Trojan schools thing, I'd argue what they did was wrong, too.)

katherinaMinola British is not only the dominant culture it is also the country within which we live. Yet despite this the worst performing group in society (educationally) are working class white British males not ethnic minorities.

The colour of the teacher matters not a jot. Dear god, if I wanted a mix and match to co-ordinate with DS I'd be looking a long time - colour/ethnicity/religion...?

I would prefer, however, more male teachers, especially in the younger years, as there are more children being brought up without a consistent male role model.