To think this is a bit racist?

[EMS23]

Two friends from completely separate friendship groups have recently expressed a similar opinion to me. They have each moved their DC from a school because 'she was one of only two children not called Mohammed' / 'they were all Muslims - I don't want my kid being the minority'.

After the first one, I was pretty sure it was mildly racist, felt a bit uncomfortable about it but I rarely see her so just thought, whatever, bit of a shame but no great loss.
Then one of my oldest and best friends said the exact same thing and now I don't know how to feel. I love her and have always really respected her intelligence so now what?
Am I being hyper sensitive here? I'm a white British person so i don't think I feel offended for myself IYSWIM but I abhor racism in any form and never imagined myself as being friends with people that I knew were.

Re kids in school.

I am trying to imagine any of you coming up to me or Blu at the school gates and telling us that you were taking your child out of the school because my kid had moved class and would therefore be the 16th brown kid in your kid's class, and so you did not want your child in class with mine.

Glittery, would you really do this? Seriously?

Annie to me, '16th brown kid' is fine. As i said i work as a TA where there is a few non-white kids and i think it's great! One of them is even (secretly) one of my faves, I was referring to the OP saying 2 white kids and the rest non-white!!!

because to me 16th seems half and half so quite a nice mix :)

And i have no problem with non-white kids and am certainly not racist

If those children had a poor understanding of English, yes I would. My child has speech delay already. But absolutely, perhaps I should have been more precise in my objections. I would not be happy with the majority of children in my daughters class (she's 6) having English as their second language and her feeling in a minority because of this.
I couldn't give a fuck about colour of skin.

Surely it's parents choice over schools and where they choose to send their child and the reasons they have are their concern alone

Lonely and Glittery: Glittery said she would 'move and change school'. That sounds like move house and change school to me, but it makes no odds to me: either way it's moving to get away from my child, based on ethnicity.

That would be my child with great grandparents and grandparents from 3 different continents who, variously, fought in 2 world wars, endured years in the trenches, sustained terrible injuries, to protect this country.

My child who had grandparents and great grandparents who , variously, were tied as lifelong indentured labourers to create wealth for this country, not the country they lived in nor their country or origin, this country. Great grandparents who worked in mines in 2 different continents to create wealth for this country.

So do please tell me why you would move - whether it be house or school, to get away from my child should he be part of a group that together is bigger than the group you see your child identifying with? Do you feel you need safety in numbers?

I do think my comments about having a mc kid was irrelevant: there is no more reason to avoid a working class child than a middle class child. It was a sarky reference to another frequent MN 'I avoid this school' factor - class.

I'm a little depressed that Lonely works as a TA. Isn't there some kind of equality and diversity training? Or screening at interview?

Yes I've have equality training but 28 "Mohammed's" and 2 white children is hardly equal is it! (I'm going by this op I am not speaking For experience at my school)

Equality only applies to ethic minorities it would seem. If we want equality then we're racist.
I don't want 16 Mohamed's in my child's class and I suspect in the real world neither would most people.
Goodnight.

Goodnight, Glittery, and sleep well peaceful in the knowledge that I would not (in a million years) move my child away from a number of children with speech delay.

Wow blu that is totally out of order

You're getting personal in a debate about something that has nothing to do with race

My secondary school had a mix of around 80% Asian kids and 20% white (very few other ethnicities).

Personally, I wouldn't send my dc to a school where they were in the minority to that degree (race/religion wise). Although there were very few that spoke English as a second language, most of the Asian kids were fluent in another language, which was the main language used (when the teachers weren't nearby). It was very excluding, often racist and I'd not allow my own dc to go there.

I think Blu makes a very good point.

No, Lonely, I'm serious.

I understand why Glittery, or someone with a child with particular considerations, would think about the environment their child is in. And on MN worry about children with ESOL, children with SEN, is the basis for many, many prejudices / worries about school choices.

LOADS of people, wrongly in my opinion, worry about the number of children with SEN in a class....and I am saying to Glittery that I am not one of them.

Glittery said she would move if children like my child formed the majority in a class, I am saying that despite her apparent prejudice (i,e that my child would be of detriment to hers) I would never consider the action that many parents do worry about in relationship to her DD.

Of course it is personal. it is all personal to someone. That is why ArcherAnnie and I reacted to the sweeping statements from Glitter and you: it's personal to the individuals involved.

Glittery: One thing you might like to consider is that actually bi-lingual children have a far greater cognitive understanding of what language is and how it functions and can be much more fluent in communicating because of that. So I wouldn't necessarily consider ESOL children a problem for your dd.

And I do hope she thrives, whoever her class mates are.

Yes, I think it is prejudiced. I wonder if people like the OP's friends have thought about the precise number of Muslims they would consider acceptable. Perhaps they would prefer a quota system, as long as they themselves can remain in the majority and enjoy the privilege they believe they are entitled to. Because it's perfectly fine for Other People to be in the minority but not for People Like Us.

Whenever I start to feel the tiniest bit hopeful about progress in terms of tolerance and respect, I encounter something like this thread. And I know that we have a long way to go.

All parents simply want the best for their children, eg safe environment, good education, nice friends. To achieve this they may make different choices, there is nothing wrong with this.

In the Netherlands schools used to be totally segregated by religion. So if you were protestant, you would go to a protestant school, even if further away, same for catholics or atheists.

Now there are a few Islamic schools and only Muslim kids go there. So most Muslim kids go to 'openbare' scholen, eg non-religious govt run schools. This has resulted in most Dutch middle class native kids going to Christian schools, resulting in many Christian schools being oversubscribed. People are very open about this, the main reason they will give is different norms and values, different expectations, but ultimately they just want the best for their child. The situation is quite different compared with the UK though, as in the Netherlands the majority of Muslims are from rural and quite backward areas (women rights, homo rights, importance of education) in Morocco and Turkey. Most of these kids, even third generation, underperform, they are very disproportionately represented in the crime statistics, especially the boys, but increasingly the girls as well.

Lonely , Glittery just said she would move house to get away from my child if my child, my child, was the 16th ethnic minority child in a class of 30. She is saying she would move house to avoid my child, based in ethnicity, so please explain how my response to that is either rude or pathetic?

No she didn't Blu she didn't mention your child at all. You are the one who got viciously personal with your speech delay remark.

Why do people have to do this?

Personally, I rejected an all white school in favour of a more multiculturally mixed one so that the DC would be better prepared for life in modern UK. I'd do the same for a school dominated by any culture, I think. It's a shame school admissions can#t be tweaked so that all schools broadly reflect the ethnic and religious make up of their ider local area.

The hints given by the OP suggest very strongly to me that this is a probably school in an area of West Yorkshire, Lancashire, or some parts of the Midlands, where a very high degree of segregation tends to exist between muslims and non-muslims. There are tensions and prejudices on both sides, unfortunately.

Moreover, highly conservative varieties of Islam, influenced by Salafiism, have become common in these areas, resulting in a lot of muslims families deliberately avoiding unnecessary socialization with non muslims--hence the stories we have heard upthread about kids not being allowed on playdates etc. etc.

I have never personally experienced any of these issues with any of the muslim people I've known, but then I have never lived in a high segregation area. If the OP's friend does live in one of these areas, she can hardly be blamed for taking steps to protect her child. I would not want my child to risk social difficulties due to playing and socialization with most of her classmates not happening.

"One thing you might like to consider is that actually bi-lingual children have a far greater cognitive understanding of what language is and how it functions and can be much more fluent in communicating because of that."

Erm, no; there is a modest amount of evidence suggesting that, all things being equal, being bilingual from birth may result in a (small) cognitive advantage in a couple of areas.

And I say this as the mother of a fully bilingual child, by the way. Bilingualism can be a very small addition, but the exaggerated claims being made for bilingualism recently make me roll my eyes about.

Arsenic: she said she would move to avoid children from an ethnic minority if they were a majority in the class.

In what way was my comment vicious?

I did make a point about equality. Children with an SEN are amongst those most discriminated against and I feel strongly about that.

NewStatesman: I was talking specifically about the area of understanding about language and what language is and how it relates to meaning. And research that I studied years ago while working in Tower Hamlets, so not part of recent stuff.

Arsenic: she said she would move to avoid children from an ethnic minority if they were a majority in the class.

No she didn't say that. She didn't say 'avoid children from an ethnic minority'. She hasn't in any way suggested she would seek to avoid BAME DC.

Nor did she say anything about your child. Which you claimed she did and italicised yourself for emphasis.

You were the one to personalise the debate with (completely out of order) remarks about her DC's SEN.

What she did say;

We'd move if the majority of the children in my children's class were Muslim.

And

We live in SE London where there is an ethnic mix but if the balance was tipping over to ethnic minorities being the majority then we'd move and change school.

Are statements that readers can draw their own conclusions about and stand or fall on their own merits.

I appreciate that you are posting as the parent of a BAME child, but I don't know what you are hoping to achieve my misrepresenting what's been said and getting personal.