To think this is a bit racist?

[EMS23]

Two friends from completely separate friendship groups have recently expressed a similar opinion to me. They have each moved their DC from a school because 'she was one of only two children not called Mohammed' / 'they were all Muslims - I don't want my kid being the minority'.

After the first one, I was pretty sure it was mildly racist, felt a bit uncomfortable about it but I rarely see her so just thought, whatever, bit of a shame but no great loss.
Then one of my oldest and best friends said the exact same thing and now I don't know how to feel. I love her and have always really respected her intelligence so now what?
Am I being hyper sensitive here? I'm a white British person so i don't think I feel offended for myself IYSWIM but I abhor racism in any form and never imagined myself as being friends with people that I knew were.

Re kids in school.

No. We aren't Catholic, so wouldn't get in around here, as we wouldn't get the letter from the priest that's needed.

(Though a faith school would be very, very far from my first choice anyway, that choice was taken away from me by the circumstances here.)

On your previous post: I reply with concrete examples because none of this thread is theoretical for me, BackOnly. It's my kid who is going through school as a minority, and it's also my kid, ironically, who other posters have said they'd move to get there kid away from. (And don't anyone tell me they were talking about a theoretical example, and it isn't my kid who is being talked about - it's someone's kid, who probably looks very much like mine.)

"If you have a bright child do you send her to the local school with the worst results in hopes this will help the school or do you send her to the better school for her sake?"

My question, throughout this entire thread, has been and still is: how can this be an analogy for a situation involving race or culture without it deeming a race or culture as inferior.

This is not about empirical evidence. It is about someone thinking a school with 'lots of Mohammeds' is automatically a worse school than a school without.

Not that it's really your business Archery Annie but recent discrimination that I can think of off the top of my head is being told to "Go f* yourself you white bitch!", yelled at me by a gang of black youths when I told them to grow up as they'd made sexually suggestive comments as I'd walked past them. Being told to " Fuck off back to Japan!" at the local swimming pool (that one confused me but it was yelled in my face by an Indian man as I helped my kid onto an inflatable that his kid was already sitting on, so it was meant for no one else). Told I'm a whore and going to hell by a Pakistani guy in the street when I went to watch West Ham play wearing a knee-length sleeveless dress. A gay colleague sneered and said "does she look like a lion" when I found out another colleague's gay partner was a dentist and I thought I might get a "friends" rate (apparently, only gay people get favours, a "lion" is a friend of Dorothy, Wizard of Oz). I also know a Jewish Estate Agent who will only employ Jewish people, my best friend works for him.

So, as there is good in all, there is also bigotry and racism in all. We should recognise that and not just single out white people for being racist. Racism crosses all cultures.

Some examples from my group of friends alone.

My Irish Catholic gay friend, disowned by his family for being homosexual.

My Mauritian friend, divorced from an abusive arranged marriage. She has brought shame to her family. They believe she should return to her husband and her mother will not speak to her or her grandchildren till she does.

My white friend whose father disowned her when she started going out with a black guy. They have two kids now. Their Grandfather will not acknowledge them.

Our hindu friends who had kittens when their daughter wanted to marry a black guy. They have married now. My friends have accepted it, but still don't agree that it's right (both the daughter and her husband are Doctors BTW, not young kids).

Enough examples for you, or are you getting my point now?

"They certainly are part of the solution. Maybe the only long term solution. Gradually the religions are turned into mild and meaningless rituals that harm no one. Eventually there'll be so little content that they really all can be one religion and it won't matter one bit."

Well, Back, I think some of them would agree with you that it "all can be one religion" - I've had some dealings with interfaith fora and there are rabbis, imams, vicars etc who pretty much think it's all splitting hairs ("meh, Son of God, prophet, whatever. Pass the biscuits.")

I don't know that the religions need be content-free or that messages of tolerance are necessarily "mild and meaningless" though (I know that's not exactly what you were saying).

I was quite impressed with Giles Fraser (ex-Canon of St Paul's Cathedral) re insisting the Occupy people had a right to protest. Tolerance and morality are often radical acts in our society. I say this as an atheist, btw.

I think it's more to do with the children than with race. Perhaps the DC felt isolated and excluded? Perhaps the other children spoke mainly in their home language and the DCs were not happy there? I think you can't judge just on what was said but asked in more detail why the parents were not happy. It might be racist but there may have been deeper reasons.

I personally would prefer more of an equal mix to get the best out a school situation.

Heartening that the fastest growing faith in the world presently is Baha'i. With it's origins in Iran, this faith looks to amalgamate all faiths by their common ground. So includes all religions from the Old Testament (all forms of Christianity, Islam & Judaism) as well as Eastern Philosophy and religions. A faith that looks to find what's the same, rather than what's different is indeed refreshing.

However, it doesn't change my point that adopting or following this faith, or any other, or no faith at all, is still you deciding that this way is best. And if your way is best, by very definition, the other person who has chosen differently to you's way is inferior by that very reckoning.

MistressMia

I can't give you stats just my own personal experience of 2nd generation Pakistani colleagues (and their brothers, cousins and friends) who have arranged marriages with Pakistani women (some of whom speak very little English). As a result, Urdu is spoken at home and their children start school speaking Urdu as a first language but generally pick up English quite quickly.

Urdu classrooms aren't an urban myth but I suspect they're quite regional. (Why do some people find it so hard to imagine that just cos they've not seen it, it doesn't happen somewhere?) What I'm describing is in the North, I don't know how widespread it is elsewhere.

Where are you?

"However, it doesn't change my point that adopting or following this faith, or any other, or no faith at all, is still you deciding that this way is best. And if your way is best, by very definition, the other person who has chosen differently to you's way is inferior by that very reckoning."

No it doesn't! What a strange argument, Sleep!

I can choose what's right for me whilst having the greatest respect for other people's choices. There are a couple of sects/religions in particular that I have a lot of time for, but they're not right for me. Same as I wear navy rather than yellow, because it suits me - but in fact I adore yellow. Same as I've chosen a career that suits my talents - but am rather envious of people who have other talents. Same as I'd love a large family (and enjoy being with large families), but I know that's not right for me.

And that's the key word, 'respect'.

Where is the respect for those who have come on here to honestly say that they don't want their children to be in a minority at school.

We can respect everyone's right to their own culture and to raise their child in the best way according to their beliefs, unless you happen to be white and then you cry "racist" and attack.

Respect one group, respect them all. Including the "racist" whites. They have every much a right to their opinion as anyone else does.

shaska you're stuck because you're thinking of people having an absolute value that we have to decide.

If you need a pipe fixed and you ask a plumber does that mean you think electricians are an inferior race?

I suppose in that quote where I said about "If you have a bright child do you send her to the local school with the worst results" you thought I meant that schools with Muslims in were inferior.

If so I can only suggest reading everything I said again from the beginning.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, believes that their own religion or culture is the best. Otherwise they adopt another religion or culture that is in their opinion, superior.

Well, no. I don't accept that premise at all. I certainly don't think that my cultures (as I belong to more than one) are superior to anyone else's. There is no cultural hierarchy as far as I'm concerned. There are many elements of these cultures that I adore, some I'm relatively indifferent about, some I would gladly jettison. I would imagine it is the same for most people, actually. I don't suppose most people go around proclaiming, "Oh, yes, being British is inherently superior to being Belgian" or whatever. And for those who do, I know exactly what I think about such beliefs.

Equality really isn't about each group viewing others suspiciously, while secretly believing in their own superiority. At least, that isn't the kind of "equality" I would want any part of.

"Respect one group, respect them all. Including the "racist" whites. They have every much a right to their opinion as anyone else does."

OK. You win the prize.

However, you raise your children to the best of your ability Elk, the choices you make are determined by your own life experience and you disregard those aspects of your culture you find unworkable.

So, how about those who do not disregard those same aspects? Do you not question how they can continue with them, be they cultural or religious dogma? Do you not believe your choice is better than theirs? By better, I of course mean, superior?

Fine KatherineMinola, I reword it. Condemn the "racist" whites, condemn all racists.

Singling one group out and not applying the same rules across the board is not equality is it?

I do condemn all racists.

Or rather - all racism. (Hate the sin, etc - not that I'm a Christian).

Glad to hear it! That has been my point from my first post. The recognition that racism is not a wholly white disease.

The idea that one religion or culture is inherently superior to another is the very heart of the problem being addressed on this thread. I don't believe in a hierarchy, with one culture or religion at the top. But it seems that some people really do believe that, if they want to keep their children away from undesirable representatives of The Other.

On the subject of comparing religions/cultures I don't see how people can be completely neutral. After all your religion is from the real god and theirs is a made up one.

In the case of culture large parts of it really are not better/worse, but some things certainly are.

A rather predictable example (because we all know about it and take a side) is FGM. Where people practice it they are not doing evil. They ae doing what their culture deems the right thing. In the west generally it is seen as a vile act. Two different religions/cultures. If it doesn't matter at all then can I assume we're all ok with making FGM compulsory?

if they want to keep their children away from undesirable representatives of The Other.

I'm talking about comparing it now because it has moved onto that subject, but the original discussion was nothing to do with that. That was invented as being easier to debate than the truth.

Then we are in agreement Elk.

My point was not to be blind to the fact that racism is not a one way street and I'm glad you've acknowledged this.

My point is somewhat off topic I admit, I have headed off on my own tangent.

I would like to see real equality. Not pearl clutching, look, isn't this awful, I'm not like that , i.e. look at me, I'm just so much better than these racists y'know.

There's no perfect religion, no perfect nationality. We make our own choices to the best of our abilities. We are all infallible humans doing the best we can. Perhaps we need to stop being so judgemental about what others believe. And if we can't, we need to recognise that by judging them we are being just as bigoted as those that judge others.

Yes, like Elk, I don't believe in a hierarchy with one culture or religion at the top. I don't suppose anyone is entirely neutral on the subject of religions/cultures - but that's not the same as believing that "your religion is from the real god and theirs is a made up one". As I said upthread, I've had dealings with various interfaith fora, and the types of people who sit on these (all religious leaders themselves) tend to be very pro one another's religions - to the extent (as I said) of not really seeing much difference.

My FIL goes to Synagogue once a week because he enjoys it and he's met a good crowd there. He's not Jewish.

Personally I find it quite easy to square my view that FGM (and male circumcision, for that matter) should be stopped with having a broad respect for the world's major religions. I don't know why other people find it so difficult.

wanttosqueeze

I'm in the South, where there are fewer towns with high density populations of Pakistani's, although this is changing.

I can see how there would be a difference between what you see and my experience. A lot of the Pakistani's in the North originated from more rural areas and are somewhat more insular than those from the cities. They have a higher rate of marrying and bringing over brides / grooms from Pakistan.

Nonetheless though, as you say, the kids pick up English very fast and even more so these days than when I was young due to their exposure to it pre-school through TV, internet etc. I couldn't speak English when I started nursery as I'd spent my first few years living in Pakistan, but was fluent in next to no time. I see that now with many of the recent Eastern Europeans. So am still surprised that English is the dominant language of communication.

Just to add to the subject of whether the OP's friends are being racist.

Many professional educated Pakistani parents won't send their kids to schools with high concentrations of other Pakistani's. My brother paid for private education rather than send his sons to the local grammar school, which is on his doorstep and which he attended. He didn't want his children being influenced and exposed to any religious extremist views from the other kids.

Oh, yes, being British is inherently superior to being Belgian" or whatever

True, but if I'm being honest I would say that societies based on the principles of European, liberal, secular democracy founded on the principles of the Enlightenment are are better than those which don't espouse those principles. Which presumably is a view shared by refugees and asylum seekers coming to such countries.