To think this is a bit racist?

[EMS23]

Two friends from completely separate friendship groups have recently expressed a similar opinion to me. They have each moved their DC from a school because 'she was one of only two children not called Mohammed' / 'they were all Muslims - I don't want my kid being the minority'.

After the first one, I was pretty sure it was mildly racist, felt a bit uncomfortable about it but I rarely see her so just thought, whatever, bit of a shame but no great loss.
Then one of my oldest and best friends said the exact same thing and now I don't know how to feel. I love her and have always really respected her intelligence so now what?
Am I being hyper sensitive here? I'm a white British person so i don't think I feel offended for myself IYSWIM but I abhor racism in any form and never imagined myself as being friends with people that I knew were.

Re kids in school.

Cherryade, how about bigoted, prejudiced, Islamophobic? I think you are racist but I can use more specific words if you prefer.

Arsenic, I don't know that, it just my opinion based on what Lonely has said. I can't back it up with any sort of evidence at all. It's just how her posts come across to me. Like someone who is very frightened of what she doesn't know and so is clinging to an ideal that is more than a touch racist.

ArcheryAnnie

But, BackOnly, if the head teacher only ever appoints white people when there are talented candidates of all ethnicities available...

If you know of a particular case then report them, but the fact that a school might have a majority of white teachers in a country where the majority of people are white is not in itself proof of racism. That's what I'm arguing against.

MrsDeVere thanks for mentioning the poster who talked about the school where classes weren't taught in English. I thought that couldn't possibly be allowed (unless the school is designated as such of course) but wasn't positive so didn't want to comment.

Also thanks for your posts generally- it's good to hear from someone with such broad experience.

Mumsy I went to a school where ESOL was taught - optionally, obviously. It was because there were a large number of Chinese and Japanese kids who were sent there because it was seen as a strong academic school - much, I imagine, like the school Greengrows kids go to, though mine wasn't private. There were also options in the cafeteria to cater for kosher/halal/vegetarian diets. Just so you know- where I come from, ESOL classes and dietary variety is seen as a sign of a fancy school!

KatherinaMinola --- It comes under racism

There's a huge difference and it amazes me that otherwise intelligent people seem unable to take it in.

If you don't want to play golf with someone because they are black or Jewish that is racist and also very stupid. Their race has no effect on their golf game.

If you don't want to play golf with someone because they are crap at golf you can't say "well that's just like racism. Lumping together all the people who can't play golf"

Because it isn't. It's a perfectly valid reason that has an effect on the pursuit in question.

In the same way I don't want to share a flat with with someone who practices the trombone. It's not trombonist ffs. It's a reason.

Now I don't know how often it would arise that a child would be significantly different to all her classmates so that socialising might be limited and bullying might occur, but if it is a possibly then choosing another class/school with a variety of people is is a REASON not a prejudice.

Elkiedie how can you call me racist? You don't know what race I am? If a local school was majority Hindu then that would be fine for me, these are my beliefs, Islam contradicts them so my children won't be attending a majority Muslim school.

Some of the people on this thread need to learn a bit of British history. It might surprise them.

Yes because we still have classes and areas which are 94% Viking or Saxon.

Immigration/migration is a natural process, but so was integration. Why has it become a problem now?

MrsDeVere; in Lambeth and Southwark I know of state schools that teach in French and German: bilingual schools are all the rage, it seems. But the example on this thread seemed to be an unofficial practice rather than the stated policy of the school.

I am a mother on one year old and what I have read here u find it disturbing, it's making me see people differently.

BackOnly I see what you're saying. But where it falls down is where you assume, to continue the metaphor, that a certain group of people will be shit at golf, for no reason other than their race or religion.

Well let's see if I can stretch the metaphor a bit further. :) If a group of people were from a country with no golf courses it might be reasonable to suppose they'd not had much practice.

Remember we're not talking about having the bad golfers shot or imprisoned. Just not making them our first choice.

Someone is about to choose a school and they are adding up the pros and cons. They look at how hard it is to get there. If it has a good record and so on.

If it is overwhelmingly full of children from a very different culture they may say "well all other things being equal we won't take the chance that little sally will feel excluded".

It's a decision based on probabilities and not an unreasonable one. I hope that same person would NOT join in a protest against those children being at that school. That would be something else entirely.

BackOnly, Islamophobia does come under racism. I assure you it does. It is a subset of racism.

Regarding the phenomenon ArcheryAnnie describes, 'recruiting in your own image' is an endemic problem in teaching management. I agree that it does need to be challenged. (When I was looking round schools one of the questions I asked HTs was the ethnic make-up of the SMT - it did, to my surprise, make them squirm).

I went to High School in Wandsworth, in the seventies. Plenty of experience. I was the only person in my class that spoke another language. I wasn't the only person in the class that would be classed as 'white'. As I say, in Primary school I was the one of a few that didn't speak English at home, yet had perfect grammar, Does that bother you Cherry?

Katharina: In the Equalities Act race is defined as including 'colour, nationality and ethnic origin' (from memory...I can't find it on the EHRC website). Religion has a different category. I am always surprised that nationality is included under race under the act- but it is.

This is the dilemma for liberals. Jihaddists aren't liberal and don't allow for differing views. So when you happily let your children attend Islamic schools and teach them that it's ok for women to be treated as second class citizens, wear the niqab etc you are allowing them to be indoctrinated in prejudice and inequality. There are many schools in Birmingham and London that have been/are being investigated for this.

But go ahead and remain tolerant of it if it suits your liberalism.

Mrs DeVere I am not a hypocritical racist. I am allowed to prefer secular schools to religious ones. I have friends of all religions, catholic, Muslim, Hindu. It doesn't mean I want my child to attend a catholic or Islamic school though. I understand that many Muslims aren't Jihaddists. Like I said, I don't like religion. Young people going to fight in Syria is a tragedy and surely the best way to avoid this is to avoid schools that only represent one religion?

Avoid attend on one, or avoid having them?

I don't think that religious schools should exist. It encourages ignorance, mistrust and segregation.

I don't want my children to be educated in a majority Muslim school because I don't want them to be influenced by that religion.

cherryade8 except that would only happen if you let it happen. My DS, despite having mostly-Muslim friends and classmates his entire school career (and he's now a teenager), and he's not sexist (I have to explain sexism to him as it baffles him) and he will cheerfully tell his mates that being gay is no big deal when they are homophobic, and he has no problem being one of the few kids in the class who thinks Darwin was a bang-on dude, etc etc. Who know, maybe some of his attitudes will rub off the other way? (I like his friends, btw, even if I disagree with their politics and social attitudes sometimes.)

Chocolate if you are so relaxed about providing non-white role models at home, why don't you feel the same about having male role models? Surely your home life can produce those, too?

cherryade8 you do understand that we're talking about bog-standard state schools here that just happen to have mostly Muslim pupils, yes? We aren't discussing Islamic schools (which I would not want my DC to attend any more than I'd want him to attend a Catholic school or any other faith school). The schools we are talking about will follow a standard curriculum, and will most likely have white, non-Muslim teachers and a white head, if my experience is anything to go by. (Warning: anecdata!)

BackOnly I was talking about London, where more than 40% are non-white.

DS has male role models at home. I think there aren't enough male teachers (or nurses and other 'traditionally female jobs') - and that is a good role model for girls and boys.

Large scale immigration from Pakistan & Bangladesh stopped in the 70's. Most muslim children of Pakistani origin in the UK at school now are third or at most second generation and British born. Their first language is therefore English. Where are all these state schools where Urdu is being spoken among kids in the playground ?

I don't know any Pakistani family where the kids speak to each other in Urdu. I spoke to my parents in Urdu, but with my siblings and with the children of my parent's friends, English was the language we always communicated in.

Many third generation children can't speak Urdu and barely understand it as their parents speak to each other in English, my nephews being a prime example of this.