To think this is a bit racist?

[EMS23]

Two friends from completely separate friendship groups have recently expressed a similar opinion to me. They have each moved their DC from a school because 'she was one of only two children not called Mohammed' / 'they were all Muslims - I don't want my kid being the minority'.

After the first one, I was pretty sure it was mildly racist, felt a bit uncomfortable about it but I rarely see her so just thought, whatever, bit of a shame but no great loss.
Then one of my oldest and best friends said the exact same thing and now I don't know how to feel. I love her and have always really respected her intelligence so now what?
Am I being hyper sensitive here? I'm a white British person so i don't think I feel offended for myself IYSWIM but I abhor racism in any form and never imagined myself as being friends with people that I knew were.

Re kids in school.

BackOnly, Islamophobia does come under racism. I assure you it does. It is a subset of racism.

There's no such thing as Islamophobia, it's one of those purposely emotive terms like 'benefit scroungers' that you've picked up from the media. Try saying the whole meaning each time instead of the term and you'll be forced to think about what you are saying.

I can assure you that disagreeing with a set of beliefs or practices is not racism. It's pretty much the opposite of racism which is about hating without reason.

I don't hate all Muslims or all Christians or Jews, but I despise what they teach and what they do because of their religion.

Even if not everyone in a religion commits every vile act required of it they are still enabling those who do. They teach by word or example that their religion is the word of god/allah and that morals are superseded by his wishes. That impulses are probably god telling you to do something. That other people don't have rights because they are not god's chosen. Then they wring their hands at atrocities/abuse in the news and say 'well they must not be real Muslims/Christians'

If you feel like that, BackOnly, how do you expect anything at all to change if Muslim children are only exposed to the views of other Muslim children, as everyone else whisks their children away?

"Well let's see if I can stretch the metaphor a bit further. smile If a group of people were from a country with no golf courses it might be reasonable to suppose they'd not had much practice."

BackOnly - but what are the real life equivalents of these absent golf courses? To return to the actual question - what is the child from a different culture lacking that would make them less desirable as a schoolmate?

For what it's worth, I agree with you, to a degree, about religion. I don't hate nice people who happen to be religious, but I do think they're wrong on some pretty fundamental levels, and I do think that given the amount of trouble caused by religion (ALL religions), we could do with minimising its effect on society (ALL societies).

However, these ideas of mine, in the real world, I can't enforce them without making life unpleasant for others. I have no desire to go around telling christians they're responsible for thousands of years of horrific behaviour and injustice (including, in ways that still affect me directly, injustice to woman) because individually, they're not. The same way, I can't feel that it's right to deem a class of muslim children 'not good enough' for my child, simply because of current issues of extremism in that religion.

This was never a question about faith schools, and I, like you, would never send my child to a school where they were taught that a god exists. This was a question about a woman making a statement about 'Mohammeds' which a) can't be true and and b) not only generalises about a culture but also implies that that culture is less valuable than the culture of the woman who made the statement. To me that is straight up bigotry, no two ways about it.

BackOnly - 'Islamophobia' is a useful concept that 'exists' as much as sexism, racism or anything else we can categorize and label 'exists'. The term has been around for about half a century. I read academic books about it at university and I attended my first conference on it in 2003, IIRC.

Blu, Islamophobia is/would be in pretty much all cases covered by the RR(A)A.

Back: "Even if not everyone in a religion commits every vile act required of it they are still enabling those who do."

Tbh, Back, your words explain perfectly why the casual racism displayed on this thread is a problem. The people onthread might not be paid-up members of the BNP/UKIP and they might not go out beating up Muslims or smashing Mosque windows for a hobby, and they might not even be in a position where they can discriminate against Muslims in their daily lives/work - but ultimately they shore up and bolster and enable the actions of those who do.

Not racist. I'd probably move my child if they were the only girl in the class. Would I then be being sexist?

Maybe they just want their child to have a balance. 'Normal' society has a balance. Probably not great from a diversity point of view for all of the kids to be one culture.

My own viewpoint is that people should be free to hold whatever opinion they have without being called out and bullied for it.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, believes that their own religion or culture is the best. Otherwise they adopt another religion or culture that is in their opinion, superior.

Now, what I'm seeing on this thread is a lot of attacks on those who believe their culture is the best and are saying so. What I'm not seeing is recognition that all cultures / religions feel this way, and they most certainly say so too. However, if these are cultures / religions that happen to be in the minority in this Country then they are not called out on it. Instead they are supported by people saying they have the absolute right to both believe in the superiority of their culture and to be vocal about it, and to be supported so their culture is not diluted by what is deemed an inferior, though majority culture.

Let's have some equality please. Catholics, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists et all follow their particular religion and raise their children in that religion because they believe it is the best. Let's recognise that please.

Let's not attack any religion, or any atheist or agnostic, for choosing what they consider is best for their children.

We do not call other religions out when they insist or prefer that their children can only marry within their own religion (and there's plenty that do), let's extend that grace to those who are also entitled to their own opinions, even if they don't agree with what you believe in.

Equality is the word. Call out one group. Call them all out. Else you are being just as bigoted as you claim these people you disagree with are.

My own viewpoint is that people should be free to hold whatever opinion they have without being called out and bullied for it.

Ah, yes. Politely objecting to racist views on mumsnet is "bullying".

You've never had "n-" yelled at you in the street, have you? You've never had "chinky" used instead of your name in the playground, have you? You've never been pulled over by the police, despite breaking no laws, because what's a black guy like you driving a nice car like that, have you? Because if you had, you wouldn't have the brass nerve to describe someone saying "I think that's a bit racist" as "bullying".

What utter horseshit I've heard on this thread.

ArcheryAnnie as a matter of fact I don't want people to whisk their children away. I just understand why they might.

If you have a bright child do you send her to the local school with the worst results in hopes this will help the school or do you send her to the better school for her sake?

I doubt any parent would do the former.

If you made me emperor I'd force some kind of random exchange so everyone could be mixed in.

shaska maybe this partly answers your question too.

I want everyone mixed in so they get to know each other. Avoiding a situation where a child may be the only one is just doing what's best for that child. It's not about value, but about a small child who may be the odd one out. If schools were really mixed there'd never be such a problem.

Catching up here.

KatherinaMinola I said "Even if not everyone in a religion commits every vile act required of it they are still enabling those who do."

and you replied

Tbh, Back, your words explain perfectly why the casual racism displayed on this thread is a problem.

Nice try at turning it around, but to do so you must agree with my statement. Would you like to confirm that you do?

Ah, yes. Politely objecting to racist views on mumsnet is "bullying".

Ah if only you'd read more than the first line in SleepOhHowIMissYou's post.

I did read the whole thing, and was not impressed.

"Large scale immigration from Pakistan & Bangladesh stopped in the 70's."

Well--immigration of young men from Bangladesh with the purpose of working night shifts in the mills stopped in the 1970s. However, my understanding is that total immigration from Pakistan has remained steady or increased gradually following this time, the second wave consisting primarily of wives and sometimes elderly parents, and then later spouses of both sexes. (Although this has fallen off a bit in the last two years due to the new spousal visa rules.)

For what it's worth, I'm not disputing your point that the kids of Pakistani background speak English as their main language and that the Urdu speaking classroom is almost certainly an urban myth. I'm just not sure that your description of immigration trends between the UK and Pakistan over time is correct.

(By the way, going off at a tangent, but I was under the impression that the main Pakistani-origin family language spoken in the UK, other than English, is Pahari rather than Urdu--is this not correct?)

Back, no, I don't agree with your statement - although if you modified it to say that those who uphold the violent acts committed in the name of religion are enabling those acts to be committed, then I would agree with you. That would be more of an equivalent to the point I made about casual racism enabling discrimination / violent racism.

There are plenty of theologians, ministers etc of all religions who condemn immoral acts, discrimination etc and show how they interpret their scriptures to mean tolerance and goodwill to all. They are part of the solution IMO.

ArcheryAnnie how on earth would you know what I have and haven't had shouted at me in the street? You're very presumptuous to think I have never experienced discrimination or racism.

Everyone discriminates, you too; look at the assumptions you've just made about me.

I'm calling for honesty and the recognition that frankly we're all the product of our own upbringing and experience. We all do the best we can. We all have that in common, regardless of religion or culture.

I am asking you to treat other peoples differing views with respect without resorting to name-calling and aggressive behaviour. Personally I disagree that you think everyone should be of the same opinion as yourself. I think that's very small-minded, but I will argue for your right to hold that view, and it is your right to hold that view, till I'm blue in the face.

We're all equal and yes, course it was a bit racist and not factual, how can there be only 2 children who are not called Mohammed?, that would be extremely rare for one thing they'd all have to be boys.......she'd be the only rose in those thorns!! . But seriously, it's wrong, she should be encouraging her DC to socialise with everyone, no matter where they come from. Judge people by their behaviour, not race, age, sexuality, economic status etc.

I am a half Asian person......I know!

SleepOhHowIMissYou - so, have you experienced those things? I'd be fascinated to know.

You should probably stop being friends with them. I imagine with being so hypersensitive their lives will be better without you.

Thanks TrueBlueYorkshire - that made me laugh!!

TrueBlue wins the first Describing Being Concerned About Racism As Being "Hypersensitive" Award for this thread. I expect there to be other contestants.

If you are going to be a racism apologist, at least try to be a bit original about it, jeez...

If you have a bright child do you send her to the local school with the worst results in hopes this will help the school or do you send her to the better school for her sake?

There's no choice around here, BackOnly, if you don't qualify for (or can't stomach) a faith school, and can't afford to go private, so that's exactly what happened with DS. The "worst school" turned out to be lovely.

There are plenty of theologians, ministers etc of all religions who condemn immoral acts, discrimination etc and show how they interpret their scriptures to mean tolerance and goodwill to all. They are part of the solution IMO.

They certainly are part of the solution. Maybe the only long term solution. Gradually the religions are turned into mild and meaningless rituals that harm no one. Eventually there'll be so little content that they really all can be one religion and it won't matter one bit.

Once you get away from the idea that there's an actual god up there with specific requirements it's just a matter of time before religion catches up with the morals and practices of the society.

ArcheryAnnie do you practice by watching PM's question time. I ask a (mainly rhetorical) question about how you'd make a choice and you tell me about lack of choice locally.

Hold on tho. Did you just say you didn't send her to the faith school school because you couldn't stomach it?