To be a bit shocked by this court ruling?

[Wowthishurtsalot]

Just read in the daily fail that a court has ruled bus companies have no right to make pushchair users move from the wheelchair spaces on buses

Can anyone find this in a better source?

Theres been a petition linked to on the in the news thread

you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/make-the-vacation-of-wheelchair-spaces-on-public-transport-a-legal-requirement

I wish they'd used the .gov petition site though!

I hate to say it, because it is horribly unfair, but I would have to refuse to get off a bus in this situation. Round here bus tickets are single use, and the £4.20 for my ticket is a lot of money to me. Bus drivers do not reimburse or give another ticket if you get off. I have a chronic illness that means I can't walk far. If the bus companies want people to get off, or fold prams then they need to offer help with reimbursing tickets or pram folding, not just shrug and look annoyed. I would absolutely move or get off if the system provided for this.

Sallyingforth, I agree with you. I think the offence should be on the part of the person causing the obstruction, not the bus company.

The bus company doesn't actually have any power to compel the buggy user off the bus. They can't physically make them move, they can't physically move the buggy, they just have to ask and ask and have no way of forcing the person to do it. I can't really see the police coming out to remove a buggy user either. Basically this law gave bus companies an obligation to force somebody to do something but the power to do it. It was an unfair law in that sense and meant that the bus company would be forced into a position where they were committing an offence because the buggy user was refusing to move. And that should be an offence on the part of the buggy user, not the bus company. It was basically finding the bus companies guilty of an offence which was solely committed by another person who was refusing to move.

Incidentally this weekend while I was out a young man in a wheelchair (who looked like he might be ex-forces I suspect, decided to wait for the next bus rather than make two Mum's with very small babies and big prams that wouldn't fold down get off. I thought that was very sweet, but obviously he was in a position where he felt he could do so safely and that's not always the case.

I also remember a situation about 8 years ago where I got on a tram and a woman almost knocked me over with her pram. She was racing to get to the wheelchair space 'before that wheelchair can steal it'. I've never been so shocked in my life.

The only way I can see to make this work is as a PP suggested above: for it to be an offense to obstruct a wheelchair space (Maclaren Buggies to be counted as wheelchairs) and have separate provision for buggies. However it doesn't help bus drivers in a situation where several people are having a row and refusing to move and they have no legal recourse or ability to insist. This law is based on the 'good chap' principle and many people won't play.

The saddest thing is that most people will interpret this from the publicity as simply a legal finding that buggy users can refuse to fold and claim right of way. And many bugger users will now enforce that perceived 'right'.

Don't most buses have CCTV? Bus companies could review footage of incidents where passengers refuse to co-operate with the driver and ban the offenders for, say, 6 months. Not easy to enforce but a real threat to people who need the bus service.

grovel The driver says This is you on the grainy picture and the passenger says No it is not. And a busload of passengers don't care and just want to get on. What happens next?

Appalling ruling. From an able-bodied person, I apologise to those with mobility difficulties who have to use public transport. I'm sorry there are entitled selfish arses who make your lives more difficult than they are already.

Utterly unreasonable ruling.

Andrew, as I said enforcement would be difficult but I reckon the potential threat of being banned would make most people comply. Not worth the risk.

UptheChimney, the ruling seems reasonable to me. Is it really right to punish a bus company for the behaviour of a passenger?

Just to say the petition was created by a really good friend of mine after seeing the crap we out up with (we have 2 kids in wheelchairs).

If you feel the decision was wrong it would be great if you could sign. It's more about firming up the legalities and is about vacating the space rather than leaving the bus

I've signed. The decision may be tricky for bus drivers (although other passengers with mobility disabilities will surely have a concession card or Blue Badge equivalent they could show) but it leaves the way open for selfish entitled nasty people to claim their "rights."

I think the standard: "You want my space, here, have my disability" is needed more & more.

Funny you should mention that :)

Seach facebook for "want my space, take my disability", theres a group with a petition aiming to make private bb spaces legally enfoceable.

if they do insist that bus companies must put people off the bus for taking up too much space then they will have to set up a way for tickets to be refunded. Otherwise that would be wrong too wouldn't it.

Also - and this is a novel idea that won't take off - we could look at making buses suitable for everyone.

I'm not au fait with public transport, what happens if a parent with a large, unfoldable pram vacated the bus for a wheelchair user? Will their ticket be valid if they get on the next bus?

Depends on the bus company and ticket type, batman.

Round here a day rider is cheaper than a return from my home to town, and bus every ten mins, so yes, getting off and waiting for the next bus is fine, also is in town, so good pavements, well lit, and I could walk on to the next stop no bother, too.

Some places I've lived in, the busses are spaced much further apart, as are the stops, over areas with no pavements or street lighting, and day rider type tickets more expensive an the journey you want to make itself. Then the bus company takes your money for a service it then can't provide (think rush hour, rest of bus full, so actually you're taking up less space from other passengers by staying in the bay until the wheelchair issue arises - see this on the busses here much more often than a wheelchair user using the space by the way). If the company would also expect you to pay again to try and complete your journey (because of course the same could happen on the next bus, especially at peak times) would that maybe change some peoples perception of "fair".

Should there be an imperative on the bus companies that if a passenger has to get off for another passenger that they should then get the rest of their journey validated? Of course, but it doesn't always happen.

If you've already been told to get off three busses you've paid for that day/week, should you nod smile and say of course when asked to do it again, to stand in the dark and rain on a verge with no pavement with a child in a buggy and maybe another one to wait half an hour to pay again for the privilege of having another go? Would the bus company not be held liable if anything happened to that family while waiting for the next bus in a less than safe environment? Should they be? What if the bus in question is the last bus to a particular village the buggy user is trying to get to, but the wheelchair user could take three other services from the same stop within 10 mins for his/her shorter journey? Outlying areas last bus services are often a lot earlier than city dwellers realise.

I suppose I'm saying there needs to be a carrot proffered by the bus company as much as a stick of "enforcement" from the courts, and that there are more factors to be considered than the daily fail generally reports.

Going to get my boot in here and probably get flamed...

It is understandable that wheelchair users should not be made to feel second rate to a sleeping toddler, but should a newborn and new mum be made to feel uncomfortable and struggle for the sake of a wheelchair users priority?

I know both ends of the spectrum as dd was in a wheelchair for a brief period of recovery. So I hope people will understand that I am trying to be level here...

Wheelchair users (at least in most cases) are physically disabled. This will mean that they are entitled to Disability Support benefits, which are designed to meet and cover costs that are incurred as a result of their disability.

To me it balances that the the first occupant of the seat should be allowed to remain. Although in most cases a parent would willingly cede it to a wheelchair user.

It sounds harsh to put it this way, but wheelchair users are given funds which they could allocate for a taxi journey, parents are not.

So let the balance be, and don't forget there are always those who are too selfish to give up a seat (as opposed to those who genuinely would struggle to collapse a pram one handed whilst holding a baby) But these kinds of people exist in every aspect of life.

IT IS A WHEELCHAIR SPACE

A wheelchair using friend of mine spent £3000 on taxi journeys last year, to get herself to work. She is not entitled (apparently) to PIP as "sometimes" she can walk. Other days she cant get out of bed.

What happens if there are already wheelchair users in the wheelchair spaces?
If you made the whole bottom of the bus an empty flat space with straps to hold onto then you could get more wheelchairs in and buggies too.

The way it would work then is that someone using a wheelchair would have highest priority, followed by people with buggies and/or young children, followed by people with parcels and followed by anyone else.

That way when someone got on the bus any one able to stand who didn't have kids, buggies or parcels would get off.

So much fairer and you won't get any complaints that way as the people without kids, buggies or parcels will be perfectly happy to break their journey as many times as necessary.

She was then sacked from that job, as they couldnt accommodate her fluctuating health. But couldnt claim ESA as, if she could "find the right conditions" she could work.

Its fucking disgusting, the government with shit like this are bad enough, without having to deal with members of the public who think waking a sleeping baby is comparable to not being able to walk.

BeyondTheTreelights off topic a bit, but your friend should appeal that as they are taking the piss. The questions for that type of thing often talk about what you can usually do since many conditions have good days.

I know, and agree. She did get low rate care though, should have made that clearer, she was just scared she would lose that if she appealed. As its made (threateningly) clear that if you appeal, awards can go down as well as up :(

Oh and can i just add re "wheelchair users are given funds which they can allocate for taxis".

I lose my entire mobility allowance to pay for lease of a car that i cannot drive. Irrelevant a little that i cant drive it as i cant go out alone (as i dont get a free powerchair. Fucking disabled people, wanting shit like free wheelchairs so they can leave the house alone. The bastards), but thought i'd mention it. I then have to pay for petrol for that car out of my care component that is supposed to be paying for help with my care.

And then, on top of that, say my husband is out and a friend takes me out. You want me to get off the bus, leaving the wheelchair space for someone not to wake their baby up (and i know all about sleeping babies, i'm that rare thing of being disabled and a parent ) so i can use all that free money i get to get a taxi? Really?

BeyondTheTreelights
Disability Living Allowance (had to check what it is called) is not means tested and you can work AND claim it as it states (paraphrased) 'it is to meet the additional living costs incurred as a result of having a disability' So my point still stands. And I in no way meant that a wheelchair user should have to travel everywhere by taxi, just occasional journeys when things are difficult.

I once got off of a bus to make room for a wheelchair user, in the bedraggling rain with nb in pram (still thank my lucky stars I had remembered the raincover). As I was only one stop from the town centre, I reasoned that I would walk there, where there are many buses I could catch that would go my way. I did so (and it was a very short walk indeed) and as I was waiting at the bus stop, looking like a plonker because the bus I had just left was letting people off, the wheelchair user also got off. I was a bit peeved, but re-boarded the same bus looking like even more of a plonker

I think I take the stance of 'first on' takes priority.

I never suggested that a wheelchair user should exit a bus for a pram to take precedent. And I am sorry, but if you use all of your mobility element paying the lease of a car that you can not make use of, why do you have it?

Besides, petrol etc are ordinary costs for a household that has a car, disabled or not, so I do not understand why you take offence at paying for it.

I am being as reasonable as I can, really.