To be a bit shocked by this court ruling?

[Wowthishurtsalot]

Just read in the daily fail that a court has ruled bus companies have no right to make pushchair users move from the wheelchair spaces on buses

Can anyone find this in a better source?

There haven't been any statements from the mother that I have seen. What if she refused to move couldn't physically collapse the buggy and the driver refused to reimburse the ticket. I always had a weekly ticket so expected to get off buses but if I paid one way and had no other money I would refuse to get off the bus without getting reimbursement first. I know that sounds horrible but sometimes you can't afford to pay twice and I haven't met any drivers that would give a refund.

If a bus driver threw a parent and child off the bus to give the space to a wheelchair user, and it then turned out that the child or parent had a disability themselves, would the bus company be getting sued again.

No. It is well settled in law that you cannot be found guilty of disability discrimination if you do not know that the person in question is disabled.

What if someone is turfed off the bus or forced to stand and suffers an injury or aggravation of a medical condition as a result?? We could have yet another court case and costly compensation not to mention the effect on the displaced passenger.

The bus company could only be liable if the injury or aggravation were reasonably foreseeable by the bus driver.

So, most people agree a parent with a buggy should get out of the way of a person who uses a wheelchair. Fair enough.

Is it any more difficult to decide what should happen if, say, the wheelchair space is full of people standing? Most buses are licensed to carry significantly fewer standing passengers if a wheelchair user is on board (e.g. the New Routemaster can carry 87 people or 81 people one of whom is in a wheelchair).

If the drivers can't make people move to allow a disabled person on board, what's to stop ordinary people (without pushchairs) from sitting in the fold-down chairs and refusing to move too?

Darkesteyes, you might be right if this was a government decision. It isn't. It's a decision by judges whose job it is to apply/interpret the law and make sure the government does too.

I think that a good solution would be a space for a wheelchair with no seats, and a buggy zone opposite with space for two prams.

As with breast feeding in public, this could all be sorted out very easily by everyone in wheelchairs descending on London busses and asserting their right to travel. Every single bus in rush hour traffic. I'm sure the bus companies would get the message, and I'm sure the attitudes of passengers would change if they were an hour late for work because someone refused to move for a wheelchair on a bus.

If the bus is at legal capacity then of course the wheelchair user cannot get on. Just as if there is already a wheelchair in the space. That's not the issue, CasperGutman. It's if the bus is not at capacity but the space is blocked by a buggy. Then the buggy should fold. And you know it.

As indeed is the case without a wheelchair if the bus is very full.

Maybe the legal capacity on a bus should be limited to the number of people who can be carried with a wheelchair user. Therefor, if a bus is carrying passengers standing in the wheelchair bay, they would be illegal and should be removed from the bus.

Am I right in thinking that there is now legal precedent that private companies are not legally obliged to enforce discrimination law? What are the implications of this?

Once they have taken the money I don't see how you could do that. You would have to have some system for counting people getting off the bus as well as people getting on and paying or showing a pass. Otherwise imagine the rows about who should get off.

i got on before you did

Yes but you are using a freebie card

I paid for that card all my life . . .

And so on!

We have a buggy zone and a wheelchair zone. In reality, that just means three pushchairs can go on unfolded!!

Luckily i've never had anyone refuse to fold for me (yet!). But as a young mum in a chair with my toddler sat on my lap, i guess i get extra sympathy or something from the other young mums?

Can someone confirm for me? Where does someone failing to move fall in law? Could you press criminal charges against them for a hate crime (technically), or would it be a civil matter, then assuming i found out who they were, could i sue them?

No, Maid of Stars, the finding does not mean that private companies need not enforce discrimination law. This is simply a finding that bus companies who fail to enforce the use of wheelchair spaces are not discriminating for that reason. If, for instance, a supermarket found one of its staff refusing to serve disabled people it would still have to take action to enforce the law.

If, for instance, a supermarket found one of its staff refusing to serve disabled people it would still have to take action to enforce the law

Thanks, Icimoi. I could kind of feel a category difference but wasn't sure if it existed....

So Tesco have to ensure that their staff member complies with discrimination law by forcing them to serve everyone appropriately (or sacking them, presumably). But it now might not have to keep, say, wheelchair-friendly checkouts clear, or police the disabled loo, or provide those adapted trollies?

MaidOfStars All within reason. Trollies yes but if there is not one immediately available the shopper may have to wait. If some twat is blocking the wheelchair friendly lane while re-arranging the bags,again, the wheeler may have to wait. And I do not think the management can be expected to station someone at the door of the disabled loo to check the credentials of anyone wanting to use it.

MaidOfStars - A supermarket must obey the law, but it has no obligation to enforce it if an outside party chooses to obstruct or prevent it. If a patron chose to obstruct a disabled toilet, the Supermarket cannot be held liable for a disabled patron wishing to use that toilet. Now in a supermarket that isn't really an issue. They ask the security to assist in removal of an individual which thy are legally allowed to do, or they call the police, as there is no timetable of destination to be reached.

But in principle, supermarkets must obey the law, and ensure their staff comply with it, but they are not obligated to 'enforce' the law which is the remit of the police and the judiciary.

Ok, thanks for the explanations, it is clear now.

So, next question: what can reasonably be done to create a situation where people are compelled to vacate disabled facilities if someone requires use of them? Anything?

The thing is, it's not saying that wheelchair users don't take priority, it's just saying that bus drivers are not required to physically throw someone off the bus, which is kind of fair enough.

The problem is that people will here about this ruling and then excercise their right to not leave the bus. Not really sure what the solution is.

If they were required to enforce, presumably the driver would have to call the police?

Might result in a few disrupted journeys at first, but once people became aware that it was the law they might get the message.

I wonder if anyone on the bus had the temerity to actually say anything, or whether no-one really gave a fuck about the guy in the wheelchair, so long as it didn't ruin their day?

If the public had told the woman to collapse her buggy or leave; if the public had taken a stance against her; if she were named and shamed and hounded by the press for an explanation of her decision, maybe she would have made a different choice.

Sorry to ask again Does anyone know whether the individual refusing to move could be prosecuted criminally or sued civilly? All bus companies need to do is pass on the cctv if it is a criminal law, all this ruling says is that they cannot enforce the law.

Would it qualify as anti-social behaviour?

I'd reckon so?

It's unfair on the driver to expect him/her to start choosing between candidates for the space, or for other passenger to intervene. That will end in arguments and delays. Everyone loses.

We need a simple, clear law that states it is an offence to obstruct a wheelchair user from using a space marked with a wheelchair symbol - on buses or anywhere else. If someone does block it with a buggy or luggage, the threat of calling the police should resolve the problem.